Thoughts on Items

All things Desktop Dungeons

Re: Thoughts on Items

Postby Blovski on Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:44 am

On the mana pendant - I think the simple functionality is really something that needs to be in there. I agree it's a bit of a wussy item but I'm OK with that.

I like Darvin's idea for Platemail giving slow status. Heavy armor is heavy, after all. (I'm too lazy to check - does slow status prevent you from getting bonus XP from a slowed enemy? If the plate + RBS combo were too powerful, disabling that source of XP could be a fair tradeoff.)


It doesn't prevent bonus XP. Big thing with slowed status is that it stops you hitting any status effect enemies (poison, MB, Curse, Weaken and Corrosion) and it means you *have* (if you have a slow/first strike thing) to be able to tank an extra hit from any enemy you want to take down, which kind of defeats the point of using platemail in the first place. Unlike RBS of course, you couldn't convert it mid run without paying replacement costs.

---

Any thoughts about the Crystal Ball? I've been trying it out quite frequently on my new profile, but find that it rarely pays off. I might use it once relatively early on to get a high level kill, then save it for the boss and either use it once (in a hard dungeon) or find that I don't need it at all (everywhere else). Granted, I haven't gotten to the vicious dungeons yet, and of course I nearly always go purist, so my perspective is limited.

Still, the gold cost and the fact that it takes so long to recharge make it hard to pull off even two uses, and when you're only using it twice it's just not worth it. 25 gold for 2 full MP restores, but you have to leave it sitting in your inventory for basically the entire dungeon, versus 15 gold for an easy-to-use and easy-to-store Schadenfreude or 20 gold for a Keg of Mana isn't a very good deal. Lower the use cost to 2 or 3 gold and it'll be a lot more reasonable, I think. (If that makes it too strong, you could always put a cap on the number of charges, which would also encourage more frequent use...)


Crystal Ball remains great in my books. Like all the gold items you get more use out of it in Vicious, and recycling some of the mana from your spellcasting is really valuable in scenarios when your resources are pushed more. (as all these spikey types of items, it's stackable with all the other ones - a typical situation with a charged Crystal Ball w. 10 gold, 5 MP fireballs and 25 base mana is on its own 30 mana/6 fireballs. However, every other source of MP restoration (bloodtopowa, Schadenfreude, MP, Clearance and Refreshment) adds a further +20% mana with the crystal ball (so with schadenfreude, 3 mana potions and 2 refreshments, you'd get around 45 from that crystal ball).
Blovski
 
Posts: 514
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:21 pm

Re: Thoughts on Items

Postby Darvin on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:06 am

Any thoughts about the Crystal Ball? I've been trying it out quite frequently on my new profile, but find that it rarely pays off. I might use it once relatively early on to get a high level kill, then save it for the boss and either use it once (in a hard dungeon) or find that I don't need it at all (everywhere else). Granted, I haven't gotten to the vicious dungeons yet, and of course I nearly always go purist, so my perspective is limited.

Very fair points. I use it 2-3 times per game when I prep it, which basically makes it a really inexpensive multiple-use schadenfreude, which gets awesome when you stack it with schadenfreudes.

I never was a fan of using a gold sink to counter-balance some of the items, as much as I acknowledge they needed limiting factors. A lower cost is one solution, but if it's getting changed I'd prefer a different mitigating factor. Anyone got ideas?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but killing +1s gives you 2 bonus exp right?

Yup; finding the Balanced Dagger at level 1 is one of the few cases it's worth purchasing. However, that's exceedingly rare and it's come up a grand total of once in all my gameplay (speaking of which, quest items probably need to spawn more often in shops; I see them much too little)


Has this item been changed from its original incarnation? I haven't bothered to grab it for a long while.

Yes. It used to be +100% attack bonus when below 25% health (Warlord-only super-item). Now it offers 9% resists and charges up 10% with every kill, and can be activated to add a one-time attack bonus (maximum charge 100%). It's largely useless by the time you unlock it; characters who want the resists will go with dragon-shield, characters who want the damage boost will take Trisword.


Never found this one, I think.

Activate to grant yourself 1 layer of death protection. Recharges on level-up. Superb for level-up catapults, but seeing as it must be prepped it rarely sees use.


Like all the gold items you get more use out of it in Vicious

I'm starting to think the massive amount of gold in vicious may actually be a bit of a balance problem. It makes items balanced for vicious somewhat weak outside of there.
User avatar
Darvin
 
Posts: 3088
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:44 am

Re: Thoughts on Items

Postby The Avatar on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:28 am

It isn't always a problem. NC is special, DI gives you as much as any other hard dungeon, Namtar gives double (needs a change), and DL gives you 5 times the normal amount (which doesn't matter, because the level is so hard right now you might as well ignore it. Okay, a little over exaggerated, but you get the point). I think just making Nammy forms 1/2 only drop one of those gold piles would be fine.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4445
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: Thoughts on Items

Postby Bloggorus on Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:17 am

I think it's important that some items are supposed to be useful at low levels, some at high, and some are supposed to be niche, others general purpose. It's annoying when the RNG gives you nothing to work with, but them's the breaks.

It is easy to fall into he trap of calling something useless if you never PREP it, as opposed to picking it up in-game. Some items aren't supposed to be amazing to prep, but useful to have in a shop if you need it.


Troll Heart
A good-for low level item. I use it all the time if i find it early, otherwise don't bother. That's how its supposed to work.

Pendant of Mana
VERY useful in early game for hitting double fireball + first strike threshold. Also, it reliably spawns to you never need to prep it

Venom Dagger
Underrated item. It can give you the edge you need if you have no resources at hand, and is a SMALL ITEM to boot. Having one extra item slot is a serious upside to this item. I buy it all the time for catapulting.

Piercing Wand
I never use this, but then i rarely play pure spell-caster. I can see it's uses, but it requires massive resources to leverage.
Perhaps decoupling it from fireball, and making it act like a RBS for magic would make it less daunting for hybrid players.

Battlemage Ring
Again, only for spellcasters and fireball spikes against phys res bosses

Platemail
Definitely one of the most straight forward and all-upside items. it is probably a little OP, and the fact that it provides such obvious benefits makes it applicable to most characters. Adding something to make it a little more complex, such as the slow suggested earlier, might bring it into more niche territory

The best part about it is that you can buy it any time for instant defense, no build up needed, like the health items

Balanced Dagger
This is fun to use, and effective when you use it well. I have no problem with this, that's how items are supposed to be; providing options in play, no direct buff or debuff.

Stone Sigil
Haven't found a huge use for this, although it has been fun to use when I have. Like the balanced dagger, it gives the player options

Martyr Wraps
A little like the platemail; lost of upside that is easy to leverage for a downside that is easy to ignore.

A more complex debuff might be good; something like lower maximum resist when wearing them, or a layer of curse when you kill an enemy.

Namtar's Ward
Never used it.
User avatar
Bloggorus
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Orstraleeea

Re: Thoughts on Items

Postby Lujo on Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:20 am

Here's me:

Troll Heart
I've herd people complaining about it even when it was a mini-conversion stone. I also seem to remember seeing a buff to it's CP cost to 55 at some point. I use it all the time, I'd take one to the grave with me, and consider it one of the best "lvling" items - stuff you convert before the end game. I'm not sure if it couldn't be buffed in some way. Specific use: - pick it up for 5 lvls and enjoy a double hit of sanguine without penalties.

I'm not happy about the +10 HP pendant, but with the nerfs to slayer wand, I may start using the pendant again, as well.

Pendant of Mana

No clue, except that it allows 2 fireballs without boosters, like someone said.

Piercing Wand

I'm not happy with it. Sure, I'd use it if I needed it, but since Bycepps removes both and costs no gold, I somehow always end up not using it. And I fight a 50% res both boss more often than not.


Battlemage Ring

Has the same problem as any BURNDYRAZ booster - comparison to Martyr Wraps. And inventory space cometition with it. Honestly the inventory space issues is what causes me not to pick it up, rather than the gold cost.

Platemail

I have no clue what my last profile playthrough would've looked like if I didn't unlock this thing right off the bat by chance. Auto prep untill I unlocked Martyr Wraps, boosts your effective resist cap, and since it's a quest item, you can pretty much guarantee it if you unlock the quest items selectively (most newbies won't be able to unlock all), and then you don't even HAVE to prep it - just take quest items.

Balanced Dagger

People were liking it so much I dreaded complaining about it - not to mention that it was buffed from the original, so complaining might've led to a "situation". It's not a viable item outside of Gaan'Telet (where you gat myriad lvl 10's). Or rather, it's not worth more than 5 or so gold. The opportunity to use it is too low, and getting use out of it removes further chances to get use out of it. Big problems here, due to how the game works.

Venom Dagger

Rather situational, and could use a buff of some sort, but any buff to functionality (say, letting you click on it to choose which attack poisons) would turn it into a weird glyph/item hybrid. Adding a gold cost to the toggle might work. Otherwise it's not as bad as people think (comparing anything to the Poison boon is silly). I've also used it to farm some piety with TT.

Stone Sigil

I was of this opinion as well, except that I figured out why it was costed so prohibitively - it's really, really good. In theory. There's only so much extra piety to be squeezed out of monsters, and this thing isn't getting tested on account of costing a bit too much for what it does.


Martyr Wraps

Errr, people are suggesting I be "buried" with this thing. I say that would make one owerpowered subdungeon. I got an endgame vid of a monk where I converted whoopaz, had below mediocre damage and still beat up Horratio. I even converted it when it raised my damage from 60 to around 90. Agree with Darvin.

Mage Plate

Haven't played spellcasters since the nerf, unrelated to the nerf. Was mindblowingly overpowered back then, and is probably not all bad right now. Got no base for assessment.


Avatar's Symbol

Haven't seen it in ages.

Namtar's Ward

I'd prep this thing any time I was going for a DP string. Also, if the lvl catapult bonanza among the other preps (I'm glaring at the potions) ever got culled, and if Platemail and Martyr Wraps were brought down from auto-prep lvl, i'd be beelining for this thing just for the "skip the first few levels" perks. I don't think it's bad, just that other stuff is doing it's job. Except that's probably a good thing, as it's supposed to not have a job, being a VICIOUS reward and all.

Sensation Stone

Either what Darvin said, or what I've been begging for for ages - make it chap shop item. I've bought conversion fodder before, I'd gladly do it again, especially since CP lost quite a bit. Not too sure, these days.
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2819
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Thoughts on Items

Postby Zalminen on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:02 pm

I use Pendant of Mana, Battlemage Ring, Platemail and Martyr Wraps often, Crystal Ball sometimes, Troll Heart never.

Haven't unlocked Balanced Dagger, Avatar's Symbol or Namtar's Ward yet.
Zalminen
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:14 pm

Re: Thoughts on Items

Postby gjaustin on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:57 pm

I disagree on the Balanced Dagger.

It's a wonderful find in any dungeon where you can end up struggling to get experience due to monster availability (e.g. Ick Swamp, Cursed Oasis, etc.). It's also pretty great for Crusaders.

Yeah, if you find it after level 4 or so, it isn't any use. But there's a lot of items like that.
gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

Re: Thoughts on Items

Postby Darvin on Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:07 pm

I think it's important that some items are supposed to be useful at low levels, some at high

That's fine, but the low-level stuff should have decent gold:CP ratios so if I find them later in exploration then I've at very least found decent conversion fodder.

The probability is what makes me disagree with your sentiment; if I've only explored half the dungeon while I still qualify as a "low-level" character, then I've only got a 50% chance of having found any given shop. When even an ideal class like a rogue is passing up this item half the time because he located the shop too late, that's a problem.

Perhaps decoupling it from fireball, and making it act like a RBS for magic would make it less daunting for hybrid players.

Given that the fireball glyph is the only way to deal magic damage for the vast majority of characters, decoupling it from fireball is effectively impossible.

It's not a viable item outside of Gaan'Telet (where you gat myriad lvl 10's).

I generally don't consider Gaan-Telet in any of my balance arguments; as has been noted many times it plays fundamentally differently.

In most scenarios, you either need very careful planning or auspicious luck to have a large number of equal-level monsters lined up to fight. Finding the balanced dagger at level 1 is the only time I ever purchase it.

I've also used it to farm some piety with TT.

I will grant you piety farming with TT as one of the venom dagger's best uses.

Yeah, if you find it after level 4 or so, it isn't any use. But there's a lot of items like that.

Not many at all; I'd say only the Troll Heart, Balanced Dagger, and Bloody Sigil fall into this category, and the sigil is great conversion fodder. While there are many items that are better for low-level characters, there are very few that are outright useless at higher levels.
User avatar
Darvin
 
Posts: 3088
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:44 am

Re: Thoughts on Items

Postby The Avatar on Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:53 pm

I disagree on the sigil. I've used it as a level 8 when fighting a boss. Between burning and the sigil you can have equivalent regen of monsters 2 levels higher.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4445
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: Thoughts on Items

Postby Darvin on Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:07 pm

Perhaps for a rogue, but unless you have a massive attack bonus the thing is a net-wash for regen-fighting by the mid-levels and a drain by the higher-levels.

Take, for example, a 5th level character fighting a 30 damage monster (no resists or reduction in play). Without the sigil it takes 6 tiles to recover the damage, with it you require 5. Over the course of revealing 30 tiles, this is the difference between 5 hits with the sigil and 6 hits without. If your attack bonus is 1.3 (reduced to 1.1 by the sigil), the net benefit of the sigil is only about a 1.5% improvement to your overall regen game, which is effectively zero. Unless you have improved attack bonus, the sigil actually weakens your regen game at level 6 and above.

By the 10th level, fighting a 110 damage monster (again no resists or reduction), the sigil's additional healing is almost negligible and you need 10 tiles instead of 11 to fully heal. In order for this to counteract the loss of 20% attack bonus, your attack bonus would have to be at least +110%. This is a very high number that's essentially the domain of humans who also are stacking items or class benefits for additional attack bonus.
User avatar
Darvin
 
Posts: 3088
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:44 am

PreviousNext

Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

cron