Final dungeon/quest balance tweaks

[Darvin]

I was going to mention that VHoS is currently used to unlock the Vampire class, but this really raises a question: should the monster classes require their current three vicious dungeon wins to unlock? They've always been a pain to unlock, and it seems kind of a shame that most players will never have all of them.

[The Avatar]

Very true. I don't know how else it would be done. If you read the quest descriptions it all needs blood from very powerful vamp/naga/dragons. How else would you get that?

[Darvin]

Meh, the Matron isn't even a very formidable boss (as far as vicious goes) anymore, and Kinisssch has always been a weakling that barely deserves to be called a 10th level opponent. The real difficulty is reaching them in the first place. BlahBlah is the only one of the three that is a credible vicious-level antagonist.

[Fran]

Just make some kind of counter.
Slaying a vampire/naga/dragon gives you "bloodpoints" of value lvl². The alchemists destilles the important parts, thus its easier if you give him more potent blood.
You need a sufficient high amount to unlock the classes, lets say 1000. The vicious bosses can have a multiplier so that you can reach your goal faster. You don't need to say the player the correct formular, a simple % of blood collected in the quest discription together with mentioning that high lvl = better blood = faster completion would be sufficient.
In short:
high Skill: fast unlockable
otherwise: grind, but unlockable

[Darvin]

I like it. Keep the details abstract, and it could work great.

[booooooze]

I spent literally WEEKS banging my head against the wall that was/is VHoS to get my Vampire win. Seriously. There have been a lot of tweaks since then that make it much easier (mainly AAs getting nerfed). I'm not saying it's a pushover, or that I frequently play it for fun, but I'm a cranky old man who remembers when games were hard (and who repeats himself a lot). I like the vicious hurdle for the monster classes. VHoS is probably still the hardest of them due to all of the annoying critters, but anyone should eventually be able to figure out that, say, assassin, berserker, and sorcerer have some key traits that make it a dungeon that, with preps, should be beatable just about every time (it's almost custom-made for Binlor...)

[q 3]

Personally, I miss the old VHoS - Indomitable alone made for an interesting tactical puzzle that's quite different from just about every other scenario. If he's not tough enough to sustain a vicious dungeon by himself, give him a buff - say, 80 DPs and either curse or fast regen. Maybe put the old Crypt back in (with some gimmick other than hiding vampires that are too easy to exploit) and move the HoS to the south, west, or maybe even center. ("Deep underneath your own castle you find the tomb of an ancient warrior - but while the warrior sleeps eternal, his armor yet thirsts for battle...")

Thief Gold really needs to have its dungeon generator tweaked. It's far too easy to end up with an unwinnable start, seeing as you need a fairly specific combination of items to proceed and there are many ways to get trapped by higher level monsters (and unlike a normal dungeon, you can't acquire or bring in any means of escaping a bad start). I'd suggest either using a less boxed-in dungeon model, or rigging it to put attack boosters and chests closer to the stairs. Probably also try to put level 1 Castle Guards closer and other monsters farther, since they're basically the only reliable kills at low levels.

[The Avatar]

You can beat the dungeon about one in three in my experience, which is pretty good compared to some of the other golds.

[Sidestepper]

This is a good place to mention subdungeons as well. These vary drastically in utility and a bad one can totally screw p your run. I think that they are just a little too 'swingy' right now. I think that all subdungeons should either have 25 tiles of black space (eg just like the MADD dungeons) or offer an easily-obtained prize that grants exploration-like resources.

Druids' Grove (The one where you can donate cash to get the learning bonus): The effect is great at first level if you happen to have the cash, but is a disaster if you entered it late game expecting to find black space. Since the bonus is situational and requires a hefty fee, I think that this one deserves the 25 tile treatment.

Pusher Troll: You can't get the blackspace without fighting the troll, which defeats the purpose. Maybe make the first room a bit bigger?

The Yellow Potion: God I hate this one. Totally explored and the potion is usually less than useless.

Probably a lot more that I am forgetting.

[The Avatar]

I think all subdungeons should either be 5x5 or the size of Draco's heart. Also, I don't really like the metal spider temple. It not only won't give you exploration, but it also gives you bad effects.