A few thoughts on preparations

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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby Bloggorus on Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:32 pm

Y'all are forgetting the MASSIVE upside to have extra exploration space. Those twelve tiles or so equal a full heal, better than potions or boosters any day.

The fact that it locks away boosters are what makes it balanced, otherwise everyone would be taking it all the time.
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby q 3 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:11 am

Darvin wrote:I've been looking at the preparation pricing lately, and it's all over the map. Some of the top-tier preps, like Dragonshield, are relatively well priced. Others, like the Avatar's Symbol, have rather unrealistic prices of 50 gold to prep, and a select few like Amulet of Yendor or Namtar's Ward cost a whopping 90-100 gold to prepare. This is especially egregious for the Amulet of Yendor since you face a 100 GP "recovery" fee on top of that, for a total of 190 gold cost to prepare the thing.

At the end of the day, I think one of the biggest issues that needs to be overcome is the Fine Sword. In terms of cost, it's one of the cheapest preps in the game at a meager 15 gold, but in terms of effect its +4 base attack is a huge bonus for low-level characters that substantially benefits your early-game. It can be recovered easily with a Hobbler's Hold run if you lose it and can't afford reclamation. It has no double-edge or gold cost, requires no unlocking, combos well with humans and any melee class but still works well for anyone else, and doesn't require any special tactics to employ effectively. Why would anyone but a veteran ever want to prep anything else!?


Now I'm wondering why the locker preps have different costs in the first place. It's not like the cost affects anything in the dungeon (you get the full effect of the item regardless of what it costs) and it doesn't affect any quests or badges (as far as I can recall there's never a situation where you need to keep your prep costs below a certain threshold, e.g. spend less than 100 gold to complete this quest). The only thing it affects is kingdom spending, which basically means how much you have to grind to make up for the expenditure. That doesn't seem like a great idea to distinguish between one item and another.

I'm not even sure what the story reason for different costs would be. Sure, the Witch has to pay for more expensive ingredients for the better potions, and the Blacksmith requires more effort and materials to make the nicer gear, but the locker items are all already there - you're basically just paying a processing fee to store and retrieve them. The only plot reason I can think of to have different prices is the cost of securing the item. E.g., a Fine Sword doesn't need any security, if some brigand manages to pilfer it without getting his head smashed in by the ruffians to frequent the Guild, you can just buy another 12-pack of them at Bob's Bargain Basement. However, keeping Namtar's Ward on display costs a lot of gold; it's basically the Mona Lisa of adventuring gear. You've got to have a laser grid, attack dogs, 24-hour video (scrying?) surveillance, snipers, guards with multiple black belts, etc. Still, that's a silly idea and IMO the locker should just charge a flat fee regardless of what item you take.
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby The Avatar on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:16 am

I completely support this. Still, the prices make sense. You're renting the item. It costs more to rent better stuff.
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby Bloggorus on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:18 am

q 3 wrote:
Darvin wrote:I've been looking at the preparation pricing lately, and it's all over the map. Some of the top-tier preps, like Dragonshield, are relatively well priced. Others, like the Avatar's Symbol, have rather unrealistic prices of 50 gold to prep, and a select few like Amulet of Yendor or Namtar's Ward cost a whopping 90-100 gold to prepare. This is especially egregious for the Amulet of Yendor since you face a 100 GP "recovery" fee on top of that, for a total of 190 gold cost to prepare the thing.

At the end of the day, I think one of the biggest issues that needs to be overcome is the Fine Sword. In terms of cost, it's one of the cheapest preps in the game at a meager 15 gold, but in terms of effect its +4 base attack is a huge bonus for low-level characters that substantially benefits your early-game. It can be recovered easily with a Hobbler's Hold run if you lose it and can't afford reclamation. It has no double-edge or gold cost, requires no unlocking, combos well with humans and any melee class but still works well for anyone else, and doesn't require any special tactics to employ effectively. Why would anyone but a veteran ever want to prep anything else!?


Now I'm wondering why the locker preps have different costs in the first place. It's not like the cost affects anything in the dungeon (you get the full effect of the item regardless of what it costs) and it doesn't affect any quests or badges (as far as I can recall there's never a situation where you need to keep your prep costs below a certain threshold, e.g. spend less than 100 gold to complete this quest). The only thing it affects is kingdom spending, which basically means how much you have to grind to make up for the expenditure. That doesn't seem like a great idea to distinguish between one item and another.

I'm not even sure what the story reason for different costs would be. Sure, the Witch has to pay for more expensive ingredients for the better potions, and the Blacksmith requires more effort and materials to make the nicer gear, but the locker items are all already there - you're basically just paying a processing fee to store and retrieve them. The only plot reason I can think of to have different prices is the cost of securing the item. E.g., a Fine Sword doesn't need any security, if some brigand manages to pilfer it without getting his head smashed in by the ruffians to frequent the Guild, you can just buy another 12-pack of them at Bob's Bargain Basement. However, keeping Namtar's Ward on display costs a lot of gold; it's basically the Mona Lisa of adventuring gear. You've got to have a laser grid, attack dogs, 24-hour video (scrying?) surveillance, snipers, guards with multiple black belts, etc. Still, that's a silly idea and IMO the locker should just charge a flat fee regardless of what item you take.


It makes sense only when you're still in the middle of the game, when gold cost is a significant factor. This is the reason they added gold sinks like the locker spaces and banks, as a way to give meaning to gold after you've gotten to the endgame and can trounce everything really easily. Some lockered items are amazing, some crap, so the gold amounts make you think twice about taking your favourite items.

The locker has always been a little bit broken, as it's probably the most powerful prep and the one that no player goes without once they've unlocked it. There no downside aside from grinding, which I've ranted about before, but he devs are committed to keeping it in.

I say remove the prep cost altogether and implement a permanent gold bonus for NOT using a lockered item.

OR put some kind of limit on preps, say 250 gold. That way taking in your Ward is a really tough choice
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby FDru on Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:39 am

I like the Thief preps best of all. Bet on Boss is amazing after Horatio (like 800+ gold boss runs amazing), and pretty good in the early game. Black Market is my #1 most used prep ever, and Patches is fun. I'm indifferent about Smugglers Den, but I've always neglected regen tactics so I'm sure I'm missing out on something.

What I don't like are the Church preps. Penalties are too harsh. I'd rather just scum for the right altar instead. The extra altar is the only prep I ever use from there, but 95% of the time I just don't use any. Shame because the altar layout on the Church screen is so pretty.

The Bazaar is probably what I'd consider to be the worst set of preps currently. I just see no use for Quest Items or Elite Items unless I'm trying to find one to locker. Maybe that's the only reason they were put there, though...
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby TigerKnee on Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:45 am

FDru wrote:What I don't like are the Church preps. Penalties are too harsh. I'd rather just scum for the right altar instead. The extra altar is the only prep I ever use from there, but 95% of the time I just don't use any. Shame because the altar layout on the Church screen is so pretty.


Eh. Thing is: I believe the devs never "intended" for god strategies to be "absolutely do it every game because there's little to no downside" but we, the players constantly scummed for our "favourite" gods anyway.

They're all like "Fine, have it your way!" but being able to pick a god right next to your stairs with absolutely no penalty would basically be one of the strongest preparations ever and this was an attempt to meet halfway.

I still kind of wish the scout preparations were brought back somehow though. I liked them.

The Bazaar is probably what I'd consider to be the worst set of preps currently. I just see no use for Quest Items or Elite Items unless I'm trying to find one to locker. Maybe that's the only reason they were put there, though...


Quest items: If you keep item unlocks down, quest item will almost gurantee Soul Orb and Poison Ward, which are two of the strongest items in the game for when you need it. This allows you to bring like Dragon Shield in and still have a really good chance of getting a Soul Orb to go along with it.

Elite items: Eh, I don't like it either, some people love the elite items playstyle choice though.
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby Lujo on Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:19 pm

Quest items and carefull Class challenge unlocks let you sort of bring whatever in and always have Soul Orb, Poison Ward and Martyr Wraps. And used to be Platemail. Heck of a prep, that one.
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby Sidestepper on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:04 pm

TigerKnee wrote:I still kind of wish the scout preparations were brought back somehow though. I liked them.


I've sometimes thought that they would go nice as a new line of Exploration Guild preps, but I totally don't expect the devs to create a new prep slot at this point in the game.
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby The Avatar on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:31 pm

Yeah. The Scout preps are dead and gone. Still, I liked tyem so it's a shame they had to go.
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby q 3 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:49 pm

I miss Scout Shops in particular. I'm honestly somewhat puzzled as to why all of them have been removed, given the devs' stated desire to have players not explore too much too quickly. Being able to quickly locate the things you're most interested in, without looking everywhere for them, is by far the best way to curb over-exploration.
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