A few thoughts on preparations

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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby q 3 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:07 am

Scout Altar and Scout Shops were always amazingly good (the former moreso than the latter). Scout Boss was meh in most circumstances, but was amazingly good for regen fighters (step 1: prep Scout Boss with a Goblin Assassin in any normal or most hard dungeons; step 2: annihilate said boss). Scout Player was the only crummy 'scout' prep.
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby TigerKnee on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:00 am

Yeah, I don't have problems with the concept of the elite items prep. I have problems with its cost of 55 gold.

I mean, the extra +1 altar for 50 gold is a pure power prep. If Elite items is supposed to be playstyle choice, why does it cost 5 gold more? Unless I'm already rich, I have no use for it and ever since you introduced the gold sinks... well, every run I take basically has to maximize gold gains unless I'm planning to kill 5 minutes in Venture Cave or something.

As far as the Scout prep goes, I basically think it's S: Altar power level overshadowing everything. And of course there's stuff like Scout Boss really only being useful in dungeons with multiple bosses. Now that a lot of dungeons have a minimum of 2 bosses I think it would have seen a lot more use in modern times.

I would maybe just roll them all into a single "scout" prep and make it pick 3 random "objects of interest" (boss/glyph/altars) or something so that you know you'll generally cover very similar spaces scouted but too late for that...?

Either that or replace the booster preps with individual scout preps.
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby The Avatar on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:16 am

I agree. I don't like the booster preps. And Elites are overpriced.

Scout: General sounds good, but I'd prefer replacing booster preps with Scouts.
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby Bloggorus on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:35 am

TigerKnee wrote:I mean, the extra +1 altar for 50 gold is a pure power prep. If Elite items is supposed to be playstyle choice, why does it cost 5 gold more? Unless I'm already rich, I have no use for it and ever since you introduced the gold sinks... well, every run I take basically has to maximize gold gains unless I'm planning to kill 5 minutes in Venture Cave or something.


This is EXACTLY what the devs intended by putting in gold sinks. Taking elite preps and high level items should be a difficult choice.

The pricier preps are that way because they are almost all upside; the +1 altar is expensive becasue it adds a huge amount of potential resources to a game.

it can make the difference between a wipe-out and a complete stomping of a dungeon. They aren't meant to be taken every run unless you have the gold to spare ie. at the endgame.

Consider highly effective and expensive preps to be single-use items, not mainstays, and it all makes sense.

It's supposed to go like this;

you start the game and progress through levels.

You unlock some rad preps, but realise they are too pricey to take them on every run unless you can guarantee victory.

You come across a quest or dungeon you cant finish, and decide to save up some gold to spend on really good preps.

Play dungeons you know you can come out of with positive cash flow

Finish the dungeon after all that head-banging thanks to spending a bit more cash than you normally would.


We're all so used to doing vicious runs where you need everything you can that we've lost perspective.
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby TigerKnee on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:41 am

Bloggorus wrote:This is EXACTLY what the devs intended by putting in gold sinks. Taking elite preps and high level items should be a difficult choice.

The pricier preps are that way because they are almost all upside; the +1 altar is expensive becasue it adds a huge amount of potential resources to a game.


Ah, but here's the thing. Yes, I agree with the 50 gold price on "Extra Altar"...

But Elite Items isn't all upside! Would you rather have Soul Orb or 3 health potions against Mana burn dungeons? Especially when the former is MUCH cheaper to actually buy in the dungeon. Utilizing Elite shops can be quite tricky unless you're in a multi-boss dungeon.
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby Bloggorus on Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:01 am

TigerKnee wrote:
Bloggorus wrote:This is EXACTLY what the devs intended by putting in gold sinks. Taking elite preps and high level items should be a difficult choice.

The pricier preps are that way because they are almost all upside; the +1 altar is expensive becasue it adds a huge amount of potential resources to a game.


Ah, but here's the thing. Yes, I agree with the 50 gold price on "Extra Altar"...

But Elite Items isn't all upside! Would you rather have Soul Orb or 3 health potions against Mana burn dungeons? Especially when the former is MUCH cheaper to actually buy in the dungeon. Utilizing Elite shops can be quite tricky unless you're in a multi-boss dungeon.


I would argue that all the bezaar preps have the issue, and if the opportunity cost of not having an item from a different category is too high, then the whole lot need to be brought down.

But i think being able to control what appears in shops is too much of a positive to bring the price down. This is especially the case when you start upgrading the bank to have more gold to spend, ie. in a mature kingdom.

Elite items is super useful, even if it does prevent other, equally useful items from appearing.

As you said, its only really good for multi-boss dungeons. You shoudlnt be tackling those unless you have a pretty established kingdom, and gold to spend
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby The Avatar on Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:12 am

Can we make it at least EQUAL to the price of Extra altar? Right now it is more expensive than any other prep, Locker included.
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby Lujo on Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:18 am

Well, the way Nandrew explained it once, the Elite Items were ment to be unwieldly when it comes to the price. They consider them more powerfull than other stuff - especially as a set of items. So they are sort of a gold sink, or ment to be one.
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby TigerKnee on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:54 am

Lujo wrote:Well, the way Nandrew explained it once, the Elite Items were ment to be unwieldly when it comes to the price. They consider them more powerfull than other stuff - especially as a set of items. So they are sort of a gold sink, or ment to be one.


Eh... yes...? I don't think anyone is disagreeing that the in-game price is a balancing factor for elite items. That really wasn't the point of bring the high prices of items up. It was only brought up in context as an illustration that the preparation is not a "pure upgrade" and instead of a sidegrade.

The issue, to restate, is that some of us don't feel 55 gold is an approriate cost to pay in KINGDOM gold in comparison to the theorotical "power" you get from spending the money.

Here are some factors I can see to determine prep price.

1) Power level. Shop scroll is pure upgrade but it costs 5 gold because it won't exactly wow anyone. +1 Altar is 50 gold because it's really powerful and the additional altar means more worship opportunities and descration tricks.

2) Sidegrade vs upgrades. The individual gods preps are "playstyle" sidegrades (You trade negatives to get a consistent god that you can quickly build up piety with) and are cheap, the +1 altar prep is a pure upgrade.

3) Developer bias. Don't read this as an inherently "negative" thing. For example, if the developers really wanted players to use knockback strategies, they would buff Pisorf, Bear Mace and Half-Dragons perhaps even "beyond" the line which they consider the baseline for balance.

Once again the standard example: +1 Altar prep is to be honest, probably overcosted at 50 gold but the developers really don't want "4 altars" to be the standard "gameplay method", thus it gets an inflated price.

So taking all these into consideration, the Elite item price of 55 gold I think doesn't match up.
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Re: A few thoughts on preparations

Postby The Avatar on Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:11 pm

Yes! That is what I've been trying to say! (I can be a bit awful at phrasing things, but this is what I've been driving at.)
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