Roguelike Refinements

[GoatBot]

Discussion - Roguelike Refinements

[Darvin]

Binlor offers a small amount of starting piety based on exploration.

Nice to see at least one of the deities got a tweak in this regard.

Slow Strike and First Strike player effects will cancel out when both in effect.

Good change. Could we also make player slow beats monster slow? Right now this creates the illogical effect that the 3-mana GETINDARE can cancel slow but the 8-mana WEYTWUT cannot.

Rogue damage bonus lowered to +40%.

Quite a modest change, but the Rogue lives and dies by thresholds of a couple extra points of damage and HP so it could tip some scales.

List of enemy kills in score screen given animation.

Probably need to speed up the animation a bit. Would be cool if the animation actually changed based on how you killed them (slash for attack, burning for fireball or miscellaneous magic, wall-smash for knockback)

WONAFYT should behave a little less erratically again

Good, good.

[q 3]

It's possible for monsters to spawn in the corner tiles in the new Fighter Gold, which could make progress impossible if you haven't gotten ENDISWAL or PISORF yet.

[Bloggorus]

I hope Lujo sees the rogue change, but I can only assume it will be a minor setback, not the solution...

[TigerKnee]

I've seen enemies with JUST that silver of health that would make it a 3 hit kill instead of 2 hit kill. It's a bigger nerf that it looks.

That being said, that high high bonus damage is still conductive for Regen fighting.

[The Avatar]

Rogues definately needed that.

Definately make player slow beat monster slow.

I also second the idea of changing the animation based on the kill type. That would be awesome.

[Darvin]

Is it just me, or has the probability of elite items appearing in shops increased... like a lot? I've seen Elven Boots for sale three games in a row, and Amulet of Yendor twice in my last five games.

[Nandrew]

Good change. Could we also make player slow beats monster slow? Right now this creates the illogical effect that the 3-mana GETINDARE can cancel slow but the 8-mana WEYTWUT cannot.

Unfortunately, I think WEYTWUT is overloaded as it is, and there's less harm in giving GETINDARE a new advantage (IMHO). Also, monster FS beats player FS, so this is staying consistent with that.

Quite a modest change, but the Rogue lives and dies by thresholds of a couple extra points of damage and HP so it could tip some scales.

Pretty much. We're trying to be less radical at this stage.

Probably need to speed up the animation a bit. Would be cool if the animation actually changed based on how you killed them (slash for attack, burning for fireball or miscellaneous magic, wall-smash for knockback)

We want some switchups based on level, at least. So a high-level kill is animated slower / more gloriously, and the "popcorn phase" will be represented by a series of quick chops, etc.

WONAFYT should behave a little less erratically again
Good, good.

Evidence suggests that this has actually been a problem for a few weeks, and technically the underlying problem hasn't been "fixed" yet. Just made WONAFYT's criteria temporarily more stupid (which ironically seems to make it better, so will probably keep).

It's possible for monsters to spawn in the corner tiles in the new Fighter Gold, which could make progress impossible if you haven't gotten ENDISWAL or PISORF yet.

Effing hell, I specifically tried accounting for / testing that eventuality. Thought I'd nailed it. Hopefully it doesn't come up horrifically frequently, it'll be ironed out for good by next week.

Is it just me, or has the probability of elite items appearing in shops increased... like a lot? I've seen Elven Boots for sale three games in a row, and Amulet of Yendor twice in my last five games.

One of us took a look at shop probability code, but it wasn't me and I forgot to ask after it. So I actually dunno, embarrassingly enough.

[Darvin]

Unfortunately, I think WEYTWUT is overloaded as it is, and there's less harm in giving GETINDARE a new advantage (IMHO). Also, monster FS beats player FS, so this is staying consistent with that.

I'd disagree; GETINDARE has dodge prediction, one of the most powerful abilities in the game. While WEYTWUT certain has its place, the GETINDARE glyph is definitely the stronger of the two.

If you don't think player slow should beat monster slow, then perhaps just have them cancel out so the player will at least win if he's a higher level?

[Wargasm]

I have to agree with several other posters; of the two, WEYTWUT feels underwhelming and GETINDARE rather on the awesome side.

* GETINDARE for lots of non-Wizard classes functions as a partial BURNDAYRAZ substitute; it lets you get a no-retaliation strike in against most monster types. It's already half the cost of BURNDAYRAZ, and further, the dodge chance it offers can save MASSIVE amounts of resources. In fact, it can double as an effective CYDSTEPP against things like Gharbad, where the dodge is equivalent to an extra full health bar - actually outperforming HALPMEH and CYDSTEPP both, since it doesn't leave you at 1hp/require multiple uses to be at full.

* WEYTWUT to me is simply a spell for puzzles/class challenges almost every time. It just costs too much. True, Slow is better than First Strike against things that already have FS or have Retaliate: Fireball. But it's a very rare situation where WEYTWUT does anything another spell doesn't do better; for manoeuvering, ENDISWAL is cheaper and has a fairly solid combat benefit. For combat, the only time WEYTWUT is better than GETINDARE is versus First Strike. Really, this ought to be lowered to 6 or 7 mana, maybe even 5. Outside of things like Thief Silver challenge, or Jehora 2, it's simply not very good.

* While I'm on the topic, WONAFYT is largely terrible. You don't usually want to fight stuff the same level or lower until you're at a point where you one-shot all that stuff anyhow. The Slow debuff has its uses, as above, but that's just about the entire benefit of the spell.

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE LOVE LOVE how much these spells (and PISORF) were improved versus the Alpha, especially the last two which were nothing but conversion bait previously, but I still feel there's room for improvement. I basically measure every spell against GETINDARE, HALPMEH, BURNDAYRAZ, and CYDSTEPP (although moreso the Alpha version, grossly overpowered as it was) because these spells are super efficient and almost always useful.