Roguelike Refinements

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Re: Roguelike Refinements

Postby FDru on Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:54 am

I use WEYTWUT all the time but I wouldn't disagree with a mana reduction. I find myself using it maybe twice in a run, or just once to move a high level enemy and than converting it. It's just way too expensive to be using regularly. CYDSTEP is the same way for me, though. On any non-Warlord I'll pick it up, cast it once and convert it. 10 mana for one death protection is fine but reusing it is impractical in most situations.
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Re: Roguelike Refinements

Postby TigerKnee on Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:56 am

I agree that Weytwut is either overcosted or if alternatively, needs to be overloaded with more effects (ugly game design as that is)

That being said, I think you're using Wonafyt wrong. You use it to get low levels out of their corridors so that you can more efficently popcorn them later. The slow is just a nice side benefit to give you an extra 1 XP when it's time to munch on them.
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Re: Roguelike Refinements

Postby Sidestepper on Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:17 pm

WEYTWUT is an odd case in that I have always thought it should cost one less, but I still use it all the time, suggesting that the cost is actually just fine. The thing with WEYTWUT is that it is an exploration-stage glyph. You use it at the beginning to clear hallways and prep popcorn, using mana that you would otherwise have just wasted on regen overflow. Late game WEYTWUT has its uses, but you have to ask yourself if that clutch casting that pulled you out of the fire would have even have been needed if you had just converted it earlier.

I've long argued that WONAFYT should have just been removed from the game. I don't feel that way anymore now that the glyph has a niche to fill, but the basic problem remains. The primary effect of setting up a fight with an equal level monster is useless. It also trains the player to play badly. At this point, I think the best solution is just to rename the glyph.
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Re: Roguelike Refinements

Postby booooooze on Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:07 pm

WONAFYT is a glorious glyph. Misnamed, perhaps, but as long as you find it relatively early, it's worth at least +10 XP, prevents goblin and gorgon flavored popcorn from accidentally killing you during boss battles, and rapidly builds piety with three gods I'm likely to use (TT, JJ, MA). Even if you haven't seen an altar, you should be spamming it early, to get MA piety if you stumble across her.
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Re: Roguelike Refinements

Postby Sidestepper on Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:55 pm

Oh, don't get me wrong. The current incarnation is very strong. The changes to slow, the improvement of its targeting AI, the new clog-o-matic monster spawning, and the fact that it always spawns near the entrance make it quite powerful. I typically use it to capture all of the 1s and 2s on the board, and then convert it once I find a monster that requires my mana to kill.

I wanted to have it dissolved before those changes occurred. It really took the conjunction of all four changes to sell me but now I'm sold. Really needs a new name, because I use it on monsters that I don't want to fight.
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Re: Roguelike Refinements

Postby The Avatar on Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:20 pm

I have to agree that WEYTUT is too weak. I either use it early for popcorn (as a poor man's WONAFYT), mid-game for an extra hit (a poor man's GETINDARE), or once late game to move some level 9 that's blocking the boss (as a poor man's ENDISWALL). Notice that in all its uses it is weaker than another glyph and all of the better glyphs cost less.

Then again, maybe that's why it costs more. It can't do any job better than anyone, but it can do lots of jobs.
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Re: Roguelike Refinements

Postby Wargasm on Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:39 pm

Huh. That's a change from my other two posts that no one replied to. Now I've derailed a thread!

So far as WONAFYT - I know it can be used to squeeze out 1 extra XP, which is a good effect, especially for popcorn. However an exchange rate of 5 MP to 1 XP is pretty bad, since for that same MP I can HALPMEH and be no more than 1 mana from a BURNDAYRAZ. If I can still do those things, I probably don't need my popcorn until after I do them. It seems very niche; my remaining popcorn has to be 1-2 XP from leveling me, with 5-10 mana to spare that couldn't go to a better use. If I'm fighting something with 75% magic resist, or didn't spawn HALPMEH (I wish we had a magnet prep for this - or we do and I haven't unlocked it) then maybe I could see it happening...but that's still a "once every several runs" use, and there's a solid argument that if I had converted the glyph earlier, I might have gotten those 2 XP by taking on a one level higher monster earlier.

Avatar's got the idea on WEYTWUT though; it's a Swiss army knife of a glyph, but all the blades are a little rusty and the guy behind the counter still wants to charge me more than a new one because it's "vintage." Although the poor man's ENDISWAL could even sometimes being a poor man's PISORF, an even cheaper glyph.

The logic I guess I'd use for pricing WEYTWUT is half the cost of all the glyphs it does the jobs of.

Half of WONAFYT's 5 is 2.5, half of GETINDARE's 3 is 1.5. That's 4. Then add half of ENDISWAL's 6 or PISORF's 4, you end up with 7 or 6. 7 makes it more expensive than any of the individual glyphs it could be covering for, while 6 makes it equal to the most expensive - 7 is saying "you're paying extra no matter what, but think of the utility you're getting!" and 6 is "well, you're probably over paying but it's probably still worth it."

Note this is less generous the alternate solution of it being the average cost of the glyphs it replicates; 3+4+5/3 = 4, 3+5+6/3 = well, somewhere between 4 and 5.

So far as alternate names for WONAFYT...maybe PIKKONYU (pick on you) or GOTCHER (gotcha)? Or we could go with the Mortal Kombat reference; GITOVAHEER (get over here!)
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Re: Roguelike Refinements

Postby booooooze on Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:21 pm

Threads rarely stay on topic, Wargasm.

You seem like you've got a decent grasp on the game... but I think most of those who've taught me how to play here would say you're not fully appreciating WONAFYT/WEYTWUT. I don't know, maybe not. But check out this annotated walkthrough by the peerless Sidestepper: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1841&start=10#p9906 Granted, he used WEYTWUT to make his popcorn bowl, but it's even cheaper with WONAFYT (if not as neat). It adds 17 free XP to his popcorn AND saves them for later (rather than having to kill them if they're blocking a hallway). It burns 5MP, but how many MP are you wasting while exploring with a full bar?

... and WEYTWUT is just too useful... where is the added mana cost in your calculations for the bonus XP?
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Re: Roguelike Refinements

Postby Darvin on Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:33 pm

Huh. That's a change from my other two posts that no one replied to. Now I've derailed a thread!

When you strike a chord with this community, you will spark discussion.

owever an exchange rate of 5 MP to 1 XP is pretty bad, since for that same MP I can HALPMEH and be no more than 1 mana from a BURNDAYRAZ

You don't use WONAFYT instead of a useful combat glyph. You use it instead of wasting mana on overflow when exploring. You spam it repeatedly to summon monsters, which you then leave for easy kills later. That can give you a reserve of 10-20 XP that you can collect whenever you want. If you have a monster you're actively fighting, this is not the time to use WONAFYT.

Normally I convert WONAFYT once I reach level 2, and only use it in my early exploration before I've even started fighting. The moment I'm doing a serious take-down of a higher-level monster it hits the conversion bin.


Avatar's got the idea on WEYTWUT though; it's a Swiss army knife of a glyph, but all the blades are a little rusty and the guy behind the counter still wants to charge me more than a new one because it's "vintage." Although the poor man's ENDISWAL could even sometimes being a poor man's PISORF, an even cheaper glyph.

WEYTWUT is interesting because it does things that no other glyph can do, so at a certain point its price doesn't matter; if you want the effect, you have to pay for it. It is very much a swiss army knife, with a high cost keeping its power in check.

I don't know what the answer is, and I feel that reducing its MP cost by 1 is probably the only thing that satisfies the "less radical" approach the devs are currently taking to balance. It also might be interesting if it got the same treatment as IMAWAL and were allowed to target an empty tile and allow you to teleport there without a monster to trade places with, but I don't know if that would add or take away from the flavor of the glyph.


As for WEYTWUT in general, the link provided by boooooze puts it right:
As I explore, I kill higher level monsters and collect lower level ones. At this point I have almost half the map quietly awaiting execution. The whole thing is just so wrong. I am the real monster in this story.

Veterans are in control of the dungeons, each monster is not a foe but a potential resource awaiting harvest. We are the predators, they the prey, and WEYTWUT/WONAFYT is the equivalent of fattening them up.
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Re: Roguelike Refinements

Postby The Avatar on Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:41 pm

That would be an awesome tweak.

As for WONAFYT: While it may not be as good as HALPMEH, you weren't going to use that early game mana anyways, so why not?
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