Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

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Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby The Avatar on Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:26 am

The new boss kill at level 1 machines. Your health from the fireballs cancels the cost from BLUDTUPOWA. It's like the old bloodmage's burning runaway.

This probably should be fixed, but I'm not sure. What do you guys think?
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Wargasm on Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:40 am

Hm. Make Sorcerer's healing not work on the spell cast after BLUD? Easiest way I can think of without nerfing BLUD directly. It's fine if they chain BLUDs, because the math only works if they alternate between BLUD and BURN.
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby The Avatar on Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:27 am

The thing is it only works at low levels. Unfortunately, that's when you have the most tiles, and therefore, it is the most abusable.
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby TigerKnee on Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:32 am

Haha, can't believe no one noticed this until now. I guess Sorc is just really unpopular (which isn't a surprise, he's an early-game character in a game where early game is trivialized by preps).

Well you could make Sorc's heal scale with level but then he wouldn't be the super early-game god that he is and will need late-game buffs.
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Darvin on Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:51 am

The big issue is that neither Sorcerer nor B2P on their own is a problem, so a straight nerf to either could be very problematic. Probably the best course of action is to have B2P cause extra damage to the sorcerer to nullify his health gain from the subsequent spellcasting.

I guess Sorc is just really unpopular (which isn't a surprise, he's an early-game character in a game where early game is trivialized by preps).

Very much so. Still a reasonably good class, but I don't use him very much.

Well you could make Sorc's heal scale with level but then he wouldn't be the super early-game god that he is and will need late-game buffs.

If it scales by level, then this would make him stronger late-game. Actually, that might be an interesting approach if the devs are willing to go for it.
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Wargasm on Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:05 am

Yeah, I dunno. People keep talking about how it's too late to make any major changes, yet I'm unconvinced this is near what I'd call a finished produced. Sorcerer and Wizard are both fairly close to their Alpha versions, and do little to account for Beta changes. Sorcerer is entirely unchanged, although I think the +5 mana is a great late game advantage. It's a class that heavily benefits early game from alternating between melee and magic. The mana shield could use a buff because as is it's just a terrible power. It's basically "your melee attacks deal extra magic damage equal to your level." For one, your level is never a good amount for damage. Even double your level would really only be good at levels 2 and 3. 20 damage at level 10 is just barely useful. For two, due to your class mechanics, only about half your attacks will be melee. Third, for some reason, it's magic damage. While that makes sense, why not just make it unresistable damage? It's a barely relevant amount as is. It doesn't need to be subject to resists.

Wizard's not much better. The glyph sense is decent, but since you already start with the most important glyph for your class, it's of questionable value. Speaking of which, that ability is negated by a prep (although several other classes benefit from the prep) but they did combine it with glyphs being small items. This was useful to me early game when I didn't have valuable preps and very few items were worth buying anyhow. Which is acceptable, since it's a tier one class, but it's annoying for PQIs and such when you have to use the class later. Then you get a very, very slight discount on glyph prices in exchange for a gigantic kick in the junk. Which - I mean, I understand from a flavour perspective why the weak, bookworm, limp-wristed spindly little wizard doesn't hit very well. Thing is, without extra mana or BURNDAYRAZ doing extra damage, all this does is lower your total damage output except at very specific mana breakpoints.

Consider: Level 10 Wizard, 50 base attack for most classes, but you have 37.5 (I forget which way it rounds, I think I always have some kind of attack buffer equipped anyhow), so you're losing 12.5 damage on your free attack and if you somehow didn't get a Pendant/Mage Plate/JJ shrine etc, 13 mana. This isn't one of the breakpoints (either wherever there's a difference between how many BURNs you can cast at 5 mana instead of 6, or where a mana potion will heal an extra mana compared to the point before). So by default, you have a nerf on your normal attack damage for NO EXTRA BENEFIT. Now this gets a bit better if you have a mana pendant, or even better mage plate (although that nerfs your attack to plain uselessness for Wizards) because at this point you can actually get an extra fireball or two out of your mana.

Downside is that even then, you're looking at (again, level 10) and extra 40 or 80 damage in exchange for a massive nerf to the attack that doesn't cost anything to use. This wasn't even a very good trade in the Alpha, except around AAs. In the Beta, there's stuff that retaliates fireballs, making it even more rubbish. Generally this is only a benefit when you have 10 or 11 max mana. Once you've hit 12, this ability is more of a nerf than a buff except in very specific cases of regen fighting. The math runs even worse at lower level where you're typically more likely to need your regular attack. Consider this: from a pure damage perspective, this ability is worse than Mystera's Flames ability, which is already something people caution you against taking in most circumstances (which is also bad - something called a boon, which costs a limited resource to obtain, should be generally considered a good thing.) Worse, there's an item that gives the same ability with no drawback.

There's a few other issues with some other stuff, but I think these two classes suffer the worst right now, and unless someone decides it's NOT too late to make big changes, there's really no point of going into it. :p
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Darvin on Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:26 am

Yeah, I dunno. People keep talking about how it's too late to make any major changes, yet I'm unconvinced this is near what I'd call a finished produced.

The developers have stated this. Seeing as they decide what does and doesn't get done, their opinion is kinda all that matters.

Sorcerer and Wizard are both fairly close to their Alpha versions

I believe that the Sorcerer is the only class unchanged from his alpha incarnation. Certainly wouldn't be opposed to a small buff, but he's not terrible, just overshadowed.

While that makes sense, why not just make [mana shield] unresistable damage? It's a barely relevant amount as is. It doesn't need to be subject to resists.

This makes sense to me.


Wizard's not much better. The glyph sense is decent, but since you already start with the most important glyph for your class, it's of questionable value.

I find the real power of the wizard is being able to collect a lot of auxiliary glyphs and hoard them in your inventory without clogging space. This works nicely for gnomes which aren't going to want to convert early anyways, but has a strategic dissonance with elves.

Thing is, without extra mana or BURNDAYRAZ doing extra damage, all this does is lower your total damage output except at very specific mana breakpoints.

Well, 15 mana is pretty easy to hit (and if you're not hitting it then you're playing this class wrong), but the biggest loss is actually cleaning up your popcorn. The wizard often requires one extra attack to knock out such foes, necessitating taking extra damage or expending mana. Both of these are losing propositions and you may as well have played another class since the mana cost discount isn't big enough to compensate.

Consider: Level 10 Wizard, 50 base attack for most classes, but you have 37.5

Hold on, you have +30% from boosters. The actual baseline comparison would be 105% attack bonus versus 130% attack bonus. This is 52.5 damage versus 65 damage. It's still a substantial loss, but the relative difference is not nearly as bad as it appears.

This wasn't even a very good trade in the Alpha, except around AAs

Did you ever use the Human HALPMEH wizard in the alpha? Guy was a fricken good melee tank.

Anyways, wizard could definitely use a buff. I consider him the fourth best caster class, after Assassin, Bloodmage, and Fighter. Yes, I consider the fighter a better spellcaster than the wizard.
Last edited by Darvin on Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby The Avatar on Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:41 am

Fighters are a great spellcaster class! The ability to get 3-4 dings as an elf (18 mana) is an extra 360-480 damage at level 10. The more mp and dings, the even stronger it is.

If they scaled the spells to level how would it work? I think the perfect ratio is spell cost/2•level. That is the current ratio of fireballs to B2P at level 4. 1:1. Every fireball is 6 mana, every B2P is 4 mana. You lose 2 mana per fireball or level•3 hp on ever 3 B2P's. It's good but not broken and it SERIOUSLY helps his late game.
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Wargasm on Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:44 am

Yeah, that's why I started thinking about this whole thing. I'd seen you mention a few times that Fighter and Assassin are better casters - actually, I think Paladin is too, at least if you allow for the Magnet prep. Admittedly, this isn't because he's any better at actually casting (although he can usually afford one or two more magic buffs from JJ or Mystera, or possibly an extra resistance nerfing from Binlor), only that when you face something magic resistant, he has HALPMEH and a possibly relevant physical resistance and an unnerfed attack to take it down with.

I'm also aware it's the devs who've said it's too late to make changes. Unless they're under pressure from a publisher to release, though, I choose to disagree. I've been beta and balance testing games for almost twenty years now. I wish I'd found this one sooner and had been able to have provided more help. I've just kept most of my ideas to myself because, like I said, unless I hear otherwise, it's probably not worth mentioning. I only spoke up about these two classes because the Sorcerer is an easy tweak or two, and the Wizard is pretty terrible at actual wizardry. At least three classes are better - including one of the other tier ones. Heck, you could even make a case for Thief being better, with their potion shenanigans - their extra items ability means you'll hit 14 mana anyhow. Basically, I consider the Wizard a near absolute failure at what he's designed to do, and I consider it catastrophic enough to suggest an adjustment be made somehow, but since it would require at least a partial class redesign and subsequent testing, it probably won't happen.

I'm just saying it probably ought to.
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Darvin on Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:13 am

Unless they're under pressure from a publisher to release, though, I choose to disagree.

Just because you don't have a publisher doesn't mean there aren't very real financial reasons to move ahead with full release.

their extra items ability means you'll hit 14 mana anyhow.

14 MP is a dead zone. It's 15 or bust.

I'm just saying it probably ought to.

Hey, I agree with you. Wizard is probably the top class on the list currently if anyone needs a buff (personally I'm not a fan of the current Crusader, but anyone with curse immunity is going to get his fair share of rocking out)

Just to throw some craziness out there, how about improving his spell discount from -1 to -2?
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