Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

All things Desktop Dungeons

Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby q 3 on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:38 am

I've long been in favor of scaling the Sorcerer's HP recovery by level - something like (level / 2) HP per MP spent would be a slight buff overall, making him less of an early game behemoth but stronger later on. (Currently he always gets 2 HP per MP; this would give him .5 HP per MP at level 1, 2.5 HP per MP at level 5, and 5 HP per MP at level 10.) I don't think his other abilities warrant changing; Mana Shield is a very strong ability as is, essentially being equivalent to +20% bonus damage, and excellent against monsters with phys resist or death protection.

Wizards would be quite tricky to modify. As Avatar pointed out, -2 MP cost would make PISORF just ridiculously overpowered. (Although it wouldn't benefit from the Crystal Ball anymore, since as I recall you only get a charge when casting a spell that costs 3 MP or more.) Honestly it's overpowered even at 3 MP; the only thing keeping PISORF Wizards from easily ripping apart all but a couple of dungeons is that it's one of the most time- and scumming-intensive strategies in the game.

On the other hand, applying MP cost reduction only to expensive glyphs would overall be a huge nerf to every strategy other than pure fireballs. All of the other expensive glyphs are pretty bad choices for the WIzard due to his damage penalty (and lack of any other advantages): CYDSTEPP and WEYTWUT both favor heavy hitters, APHEELSIK is generally only useful if you already have a good regen game, which the Wizard lacks, and it's not even good for fireball strategies anymore because it lacks synergy with BLUDTOPOWA. Wizards have long favored the cheap glyphs.

I doubt there are any minor tweaks that would significantly improve the Wizard without introducing major balance problems of their own. One more significant change that would be interesting and potentially a lot easier to balance (and which would encourage using a more diverse set of glyphs) might be to remove his MP cost reduction but have him use glyphs more effectively; the Wizard could get the same perks with CYDSTEPP, HALPMEH, and APHEELSIK that the third tier classes get, and similar perks with other glyphs, e.g. +40% damage and 4% resist reduction from BICEPS, +10% dodge from GETINDARE, +30% resist from ENDISWAL, etc.
q 3
 
Posts: 776
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:36 pm

Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Nurator on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:50 am

i don´t know what you guys think, but imho sorc is the strongest char :) I finished all Vicious dungeons with him first... his early game overpower can be used to get some serious high level kills with enough popcorn left(especially with b2p, dont nerf it :D :( ) this is needed to compensate his lower abilities against bosses. The only thing sorc excells at here is DP (mana shield kills 2 of them). So in my opinion, just let him be the way he is... maybe increasing the hp gain slightly on higher levels, it feels stupid to get 10 hp when you have 120 life...
Nurator
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:02 pm

Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Lujo on Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:36 am

I'm actually with Nurator on this one - when thinking about Sorcerer, "underpowered" is not something that comes to mind first. Fundamentaly abusable, however is, and I think while Wargasm shows enthusiasm and is livelying the place up he might have run into one of those "overpowered as crap, noone talks about it" things from a perspective which lacks expirience. Not saying he doesn't have expirience, just that playstyle really influences opinions on the matter of "what is underpowered".

The reason I rarely play Sorcerer is that he is so strong early game that I never think of completely abusing it because the depths of abuse go all the way up to "boss kills at lvl 1", and his late game sort of depends on you squeezing the max out of his early game. He is blatantly above the curve so his playstyle differs radicaly from other classes, except it's not a "walk in mop the floor" kind of brokenness. The fact people are requesting buffs to him only goes to show how easy the early game is once you upgrade the witch to let you prep STR, Dodge and Reflex (I've been annoyed at it for a long time).

The mana shield is incredibly niche (good against DP monsters) and doesn't synergize with dodge and first strike, so it can really be considered suboptimal in many regards, and doesn't make up for Sorcerers one weakness - lack of phys damage.

+5 mana with no strings attached is incredibly broken. The "heal on cast" thing is almost too good to believe - if it scaled to lategame sorc would be just silly. The synergy with witchalok pendant alone was sometimes too good to believe (another item that never gets talked about), and when you account for Mysterea - he can do VICIOUS.

And Mysterea is nowhere near underpowered - free mana is always good, Flames are something I don't use, -res is powerfull but niche, Mystic Balance became rather niche but refreshment kicks so much ass. I've done old Gaan'Telet runs off of Mysterea alone (with Bloodmage, more often than any other way - was bored of resist stacking).

Wizard on the other hand is something worth discussing. If for no other reason then to check if GG still gives less piety to him for converting glyphs. He gives less for converting small items, and wizard has no say in this matter. And then the fact that he is actually a bit underpowered.
I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Wargasm on Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:24 am

I'm not saying the entire Sorcerer class is underpowered; just unchanged from Alpha, which seems odd because the Beta is so much different. +5 mana is extremely good of course, and the healing is good enough early game that I can forgive its low relevance late game. The mana shield is just silly bad though. The damage is low, subject to resists, and only helps when you're swinging anyhow - which this class encourages more than the other two Wizard tower residents - but it's still your secondary attack form. It only counts as being encouraged in that it's not actively discouraged, and the healing ability is pointless if you're not taking damage.

Hm - maybe that's the whole underpoweredness of the Wizard - it's the only Tower class to not get some kind of special benefit from B2P.

Regarding Mystera, again, I didn't specifically say she was underpowered, just that MB is niche and aside from refreshment (which is, yes, a good enough reason to take her on its own) everything she does, someone else does better. Mana? JJ's version is better - 70 piety for Mystera to give 3 mana. For 65 and two potions, you get +6 from JJ, and JJ gives piety for breathing, practically. Heck even EM can turn you into a mana engine with a little setup and a lot less piety cost. Weakening? Binlor does it for 20 piety instead of 30, while raising your own resists instead of lowering them AND hits physical resists too, four hits from Piercing Wand does it without the drawback, JJ does it for all resists on Chaos Avatar. Flames is outdone by Ring of the Battlemage, a 25gp item with no drawback.

I'm not sure if this means JJ/Binlor/EM are overpowered, or MA is on the low end, but I think it's the latter, especially the scaling cost of the Magic boon. It doesn't help that all her other boons aside from Refreshment (which is sharply limited by glyphs available) have drawbacks on top of being outdone by other deities. There are times when her specific combination of boons is useful, but individually, they're all outshone except for Refreshment.
Wargasm
 
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:22 pm

Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Lujo on Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:11 pm

Agree on all counts, except - Mysterea, when you need her situational boos is actually pretty self contained. And she also rewards you for breathing which can turn into boons which, yes, you can find with other gods, but she has them all in one place. I dunno, she was enough to Wizard purist (i think it was) Bleaty in Grimms Grotto - not having to truck with Binlor to lower his resists and saving exploration for other stuff intead was dandy.

I do whish her lowers resists woked on all revealed enemies instead of only on one floor.

And mana shield IS rather bad when not going up against AA's and the like.
I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Abraxas on Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:06 pm

Oh wow, I was so sure that everyone was familiar with the Sorcerer BLUDTUPOWA combo, I could've sworn someone brought it up on the very day of the BLUDTUPOWA update.
I also never realized how apparently underplayed the class is. As someone whose most played class is actually probably the Sorcerer, I like to think that the class is in a pretty good spot as it is. He offers a fairly unique playstyle out of a very simple class design, and I find there to be an inherent beauty to how the class is unchanged from the days of the alpha - a testament to solid design, if you will.
As for the BLUDTUPOWA strategy, I'd say it's one of those things that look scary on paper, but aren't very much so in practice. To begin with, it can only really work if you do a lot of scumming or get very lucky to find the glyph very early on, and it's still something that only really shines in the lower levels, where the Sorcerer is already pretty damned good, so I never found it to be particularly worrisome.
Regarding the mana shield, I'd say there's more value to it than just taking down DPs. Particularly if you play the Sorcerer as a mage, neglecting your melee damage, the extra damage you get from the ability is relatively higher. One of the biggest issues when playing specialized mages is the difficulty in killing lower level enemies, and mana shield gives you an easier time in such cases.

I suppose my point is that I'm very much fond of the Sorcerer as he is right now, and submit that he could very well go without any changes, so far as balance is concerned.

Edit: As an aside, since that was discussed here too, I'd say that of the mage classes, the Wizard is probably the one in most need of change, since as they are outdone by other classes in practically every single pure magic strategy scenario, failing to fill a niche there.
That which is not dead may eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die.
User avatar
Abraxas
 
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:59 pm

Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby FDru on Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:32 pm

I'd like to see exactly zero changes to the Sorc. It was my favorite class in the Alpha and has always been my favorite class in the Beta. It is the most fun and (IMO) most versatile class in the game. Though, personally, I never even thought to use B2P until this thread... if that was specifically nerfed, I wouldn't even notice.

Would giving the Wizard all of the CP for picking up glyphs immediately, without needing to convert them (and reducing their CP value to zero) make them overpowered?
User avatar
FDru
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:41 am

Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby The Avatar on Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:58 pm

I don't know, but that would be very interesting. If he got 100 CP for picking up glyphs. What if he got +1 mana instead? Or both?

As for Sorc, maybe the random generation is off, but I've found B2P about 3 times is a row. Anyways, you don't need more than four sevenths of the tiles left to kill a normal boss. Or something like that.
We made an expansion and it is awesome. Really, you should check it out, especially if you're looking for some extra challenge.

Download over at ddmod.weebly.com!
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4720
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Wargasm on Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:05 pm

That would actually be kind of neat. I'd had a similar idea about Transmuters, but Wizard could use it more, really. It does let them reap the benefits of sacrificing the glyphs without actually doing so, but I don't think that would be horribly overpowered. It could be tweaked; 2/3rds CP value or half or somesuch. It also has synergy with making glyphs small items - you lose the incentive to immediately convert any you're unlikely to use, just in case you do see a use later. It's a lot like 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons Wizard vs. Sorcerer.

Perhaps most awesomely, it allows an Elven Wizard of MA to increase max mana by picking up glyphs, so they don't lose out by having to wait until later to convert them to take advantage of Refreshment. I'm all for anything that gives Wizards more synergy with MA, she being the Goddess of Magic and all.
Wargasm
 
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:22 pm

Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby gjaustin on Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:16 pm

I've always thought the Sorcerer was great. I would always get into arguments with people in the tier threads about how awesome he was :)

He suffers a bit at later levels compared to other classes, but he's so great at actually getting to those higher levels that it somewhat evens out.

I wouldn't mind seeing his healing scale though, in order to balance him out across the level range.
gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

PreviousNext

Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 71 guests