Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Lujo on Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:17 pm

And it was a good point.

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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Wargasm on Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:43 pm

Internet keeps dying every five minutes, this has failed to post 4 times now. Basically, I bring Wizard up because it feels the solution is more "total redesign" than "small change to be patched in later." In various ways, Paladin, Thief, Assassin, Sorcerer, and Bloodmage are all better casters by default or can be played as better casters. Even Fighter is probably better because ramping up level early is great for BURNDAYRAZ. I'll try to go into more detail next time I have a stable connection.
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Darvin on Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:28 am

In various ways, Paladin, Thief, Assassin, Sorcerer, and Bloodmage are all better casters by default

While I can see where you're coming from with regards to the other, how do you get Paladin as a strong caster class? Paladin really has no class features geared towards spellcasting. I'd much sooner consider the Fighter or Rogue as a core spellcaster class than the Paladin.

I'll try to go into more detail next time I have a stable connection.

I totally know where you're coming from.
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby q 3 on Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:34 am

How about Wizards get double the effectiveness of burning? Either +2 burning with each hit, or a cap of 2*level, or maybe even both. Would tie in well to the Wizard's efficiency and would also reduce his penalty from being at a lower level.
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby TigerKnee on Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:43 am

Wargasm wrote:Internet keeps dying every five minutes, this has failed to post 4 times now. Basically, I bring Wizard up because it feels the solution is more "total redesign" than "small change to be patched in later."


It's not like we can't make big changes/redesign in a patch or an expansion.

The original Warcraft 3 was a hilarious mess where the most prelevant strategy was to mass spellcasters (intended to be support units which you mix in a few to provide support for your army) and to assault enemy bases with the Night Elf mobile buildings (intended for self-defense)

It's still not a great RTS after the expansion but people actually used the intended strategies after The Frozen Throne.
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Wargasm on Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:28 am

Darvin wrote:
In various ways, Paladin, Thief, Assassin, Sorcerer, and Bloodmage are all better casters by default

While I can see where you're coming from with regards to the other, how do you get Paladin as a strong caster class? Paladin really has no class features geared towards spellcasting. I'd much sooner consider the Fighter or Rogue as a core spellcaster class than the Paladin.

I'll try to go into more detail next time I have a stable connection.

I totally know where you're coming from.


That's EXACTLY the problem, Darvin. Paladins only have two things which benefit casting, and even those are indirect; they can afford more deity boons for their piety (which means more MP/maxMP from Mystara/JJ/EM) or bloodplay with Dracul (if you have B2P), and starting with HALPMEH and 25% phys resist means that against magic resistant targets, they're strictly better than Wizards in melee with their nerfed attack. Even their nerfed attack has to be used once in awhile, and sometimes against magic resistant targets. It's a stretch to call that an advantage as a caster, but I see as an important benefit, especially in dungeons with random bosses where you may end up with something like Iron Man where casting is virtually a non-option. Paladins can salvage that run even if they were acting as casters the rest of the time. Wizards bend over.
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Darvin on Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:24 am

they can afford more deity boons for their piety (which means more MP/maxMP from Mystara/JJ/EM)

Piety generally is a non-issue with Mystera and EM, and in both cases I'd value the ability to convert to another religion above the Paladin's discount. EM and MA are definitely some of the most polytheistic members of the pantheon, with planned conversion being basically taken for granted. As for JJ, it's seldom you'd want to play the Paladin as a spellcaster with that god since chaos avatar will strip resistances.

or bloodplay with Dracul (if you have B2P)

Very specific, and again I'd favour the wizard's ability to convert into Dracul from another deity over the Paladin's discount. The real combo that makes Paladin + Dracul a win is that he can still spam HALPMEH while worshipping the god of death.

and starting with HALPMEH and 25% phys resist means that against magic resistant targets, they're strictly better than Wizards in melee with their nerfed attack

This is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Yes, the Paladin is a kick-ass class who leaves the wizard in his dust, but this is not what we're talking about. We're talking about suitability to a primary spellcasting approach, with a focus on BURNDAYRAZ and/or PISORF as your primary form of damage output. The Paladin's strong physical resists and affinity with HALPMEH are irrelevant in regards to that competency.

It's a stretch to call that an advantage as a caster, but I see as an important benefit, especially in dungeons with random bosses where you may end up with something like Iron Man where casting is virtually a non-option.

This is more a matter of the Paladin just plain being a better class. No arguments there, but he's still got no real edge in spellcasting.
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby The Avatar on Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:35 am

I like the burning idea. Giving him extra burning or extra effect from burning would teach a hard concept and make him a better class.
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Wargasm on Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:37 am

Yeah, I'm all for any kind of sane bonus versus Burning targets. Does more to make that status matter, helps teach its uses, and gives the Wizard a clear role are a caster like Sorcerer (gish) and Bloodmage (able to almost or totally avoid melee) have. +1 damage/level vs. burning, or even +10-20% of the (post-nerf) melee damage, to give the melee nerf a viable mechanical reason on top of flavour. Or even just a straight +20% damage vs. burning targets, like how Assassin gets +40% melee vs. poisoned.

Darvin: My point is that Paladins can get access to more mana than Wizards, which means unless you're using PISORF over BURNDAYRAZ, the Paladin can cast as many or more spells than the Wizard. Without the Wizard having a damage increase or something, this means the Paladin can match the Wizard as a caster AND still be seven times better at melee. Now yes, a third tier class should be at least slightly better than a first tier class, but it means in most cases the only advantages Wizard has over Paladin even as a caster is smaller glyphs and getting Magnet prep for free (and without violating Purist badge.) Neither of those are even direct caster benefits so much as badge earning benefits.
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Re: Sorcerer's and BLUDTUPOWA

Postby Darvin on Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:58 am

Or even just a straight +20% damage vs. burning targets

Would make whurrgarbl too important an item for the wizard.

My point is that Paladins can get access to more mana than Wizards, which means unless you're using PISORF over BURNDAYRAZ, the Paladin can cast as many or more spells than the Wizard.

Even under the most extreme scenarios, the Paladin will fall slightly short of the wizard in terms of spellcasting power. In any realistic scenario, the wizard will virtually always have one extra fireball over an equivalent paladin. He's still the better caster here.

A Paladin would need 18 mana to be about an equal spellcaster to a wizard with 15 mana, and he'd need 24 mana to be about equal to a wizard with 20. If we consider only the boost mana boon of Jehora Jeheyu, then the Paladin is roughly on par with a wizard so long as he's one boon level ahead. However, this advantage will only exist for a very short time, since the wizard will only need 10-20 more piety to catch up. Furthermore, if there are any other max mana effects in play then the paladin will still be definitively behind the wizard even when he's ahead in terms of the boon. On top of this, even with an equivalent mana threshold the Paladin still doesn't get that nice synergy with BLUDTUPOWA or the crystal ball.

With Mystera and Earthmother, the inability to convert is a huge blow to the Paladin. With those deities, monotheism is a curse, not a benefit. I'd give up the 20% discount and punishment immunity in a heartbeat to be able to convert in and out of those deities.

Again, the Paladin is still a top-tier class that puts the wizard to shame. However, the wizard is still the unambiguously better spellcaster between the two.
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