Desktop Dungeons (Beta) - Analysis & Input

All things Desktop Dungeons

Re: Desktop Dungeons (Beta) - Analysis & Input

Postby MeVII on Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:14 pm


I suppose I should mention before I reply, although I am confident the minds of QCF already know this, my input is truly only input; raw materiel, black and white, a pure data resource. It is given with the full awareness that this is a game, the entire thing is imaginary. Anything can be done for any conceivable reason whatsoever. If one wanted to say that wizards have a 1% chance to catch their robes on fire every time they cast fireball, one could. I never mean to present my input from a position of superiority. For two immutable reasons.
1. Im not making the game.
2. Im not the only one playing the game.

I however am a "why" person. I ask why about any and everything. For me, personally, I like things that have reason or purpose. Why? Because things without reason or purpose can be anything at all. Since anything could be for any reason then ... its boring. Who cares? It could be anything.

Everyone has their own degrees of acceptance to things that have no reason. Most dont even notice their own boundaries. For example, for Desktop Dungeons, why have wizards and goblins, fighters and swords? Why not Soldiers, and snipers, tanks and guns? For that matter, the exact same numerology behind DD could be applied to totally abstract symbols such as squares and squiggles. So then we would all be saying "The circle does to much damage when its using the bent curve on the zigzags." However, as soon as we start calling things "wizard" and "fireball" people want it to fit their understanding of what a wizard and a fireball are. So when the fireball dosent do more damage to the scarecrow, and the fighter can cast the spell as good as a wizard, people start to, at that point, like me ... ask "why?"

So, I want to know why the god of battle, if he gives out a sword, picks "that" sword to give. When, seemingly, it has no reason. I dont necessarily want it to do more damage, the "why" can be answered 100 different ways. The most "obvious" thing to expect from a god of killing and battle is to give you the best weapon (physical) in the game. It could be damaging, or let you attack twice, or negate first strike, or count as both a physical and magical attack to negate resistances, or, or, or, or.... Or it could be left as it is, and the answer to the question "why" would be for the same reason checker pieces are black and red. "Because." or "It was the easier colors to get a hold of back then."

A few final things...
...I haven't known of a triswrod until the above post. So it was not a part of my opinion.
...I found some sword on some dungeon, and even at 15gold, saying you can buy a sword only 1point less powerful than a god sword still dosent satisfy my desire to know "why".
...As far as for
Dunno wrote:Would you be satisfied if it wasn't a sword of +5 damage for 20 piety, but a spiked bracelet of +5 damage for 20 piety?
Yes, and I have even already expressed exactly that.
MeVII wrote:4-73-39. Yes, we all think its fun, but should we really be able to use two swords, and a shield? Recommend either setting physical slots to “R-Hand, L-Hand, Head etc…” or make all physical items anatomically irrelevant. Eg. Amulets, rings, brooches, pins, gems, crystals, auras, blessings, fetishes, trophies, tattoos etc…

Dunno wrote:
MeVII wrote:6-108-6. I killed (quite easily) a lev 7 vampire with a lev 3 taurog worshiping dwarven priest.
Now kill a lvl 7 slime with the same character. Does balance mean all characters have to be equally effective under any conditions?

By now anyone should be able to guess my answer is "no". However I did think that was an extreme enough incident regarding XP gained and other game mechanics, that QCF might appreciate being made aware of it, so they could decide if that is within the acceptable limits of their design intentions.


P.S. "Um", can imply a much more negative message than is actually said.
Especially when it is the first phrase used in a written response.


Dunno wrote:Um, trisword is +6 damage after two levels already. For your bottom line, would that mean Taurog has to give you a sword with more than +27 damage?

And the fine sword is not a random thing from dungeon floor, it costs 15 gold. That's 15(18-21 counting boon return gold) piety, if we look at TT. Taurog offers his variant for 20 piety.
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Re: Desktop Dungeons (Beta) - Analysis & Input

Postby MuF on Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:30 pm

Good old Taurog the god of war, he'd be quite popular in a world like Desktop Dungeon's.
That means he's got a huge load of followers, many many avid slaughtering little bloodthirsty (and sometimes halfling!!) adventurers.
They're all asking for help like : "Hey big T, gimme a sword to whack some guys and grab their gold!" or "I totally don't want to die, so like, could you perhaps arrange a little something?" or even simply "me no like monster, me kill, you make me better kill stuff." for the less educated followers (I'm looking at you berzerker).

Now then, there's even some people who just strolled to his altar 10 minutes ago and said they'd smash a few random monsters in his name. And then they come back. And they ask for a weapon!
Okay fine, they did kill baddies, that was fun to watch, but you're definitely not going to give them the ultimate weapon of mass destruction right away.

But hey, those poor guys are counting on you, if you just give them the Finer Sword: "looks like it could do +1 damage compared to that piece of metal you just left behind, what a deal!", they're going to think you're actually ignoring them (which, by the way, you are, sort of).
So, you can't give them a big sword of almighty doom and you can't just give them a sword called Finer Sword.
What do you do? Give the weapon a snazzy look and a fancy name: Skullpicker, yeah, that's cool! That feels downright deadly!
Just add a bit of legend behind it and voila! They all feel loved! Every single one of those spelunking losers actually think they're special!

This is totally the true story behind Taurog's sword. Fact!

That and the fact that he broke his trusty Godspanker whacking the other gods on the head to nerf them. Sad story. Seems like Binlor had a tough skull.
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Re: Desktop Dungeons (Beta) - Analysis & Input

Postby q 3 on Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:35 pm

Skullpicker is definitely worse than the Fine Sword - the +1 base damage is almost always outweighed by the -2 MP, as well as the fact that you can't ever get rid of it without triggering Taurog's rage (and it's not worth any conversion points anyway). I think it would be much better at its original +10 but with the piety cost increased to 30 or 40, or with damage that scales by level like the current Trisword, or a reduced mana penalty, or as an inherent boost rather than an item. A boon that negates 25-50% of enemy physical resistance would also be nice - and would make Mystera-Taurog a useful combination for once. :)
q 3
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Re: Desktop Dungeons (Beta) - Analysis & Input

Postby Dunno on Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:38 am

So, how deep should the "why" be answered in actual game design? Why don't characters choke on dust from ENDISWAL use? Why don't potions break when they fall on the floor? Why don't monsters chase characters? Why don't we see characters actually wearing the equipment they have and swinging the weapons they have?

Why do I keep poking you? Well, I prefer "why"s to be interesting in content, not in writing only, and that requires one asking to know the subject he's talking about in some detail. Like, for example: "why is lvl 3 foo able to kill lvl 7 foo?" - if you call that an extreme incident, what do you call "several different lvl 1 foo killing lvl 10 boss foo consistently"? Oh, wait, you said it was not a part of your opinion, since you didn't know about it. I am sad that you used so many words, and well arranged words, to express a "why" that boring. It reads almost like a great, epic, inspiring (no, this is not an attempt at sarcasm) saga about washing dishes.

...I do wonder if I should stare at this instead of writing that all.

P.S. I'm honestly at a loss about your P.S. - would you mind to elaborate a bit?
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