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QCF Design Community • View topic - Suggestion - Warning


Suggestion - Warning

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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby dislekcia on Thu May 09, 2013 8:58 pm

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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Lujo on Thu May 09, 2013 9:13 pm

I'm with you on all counts Dislekcia, but as long as you're talkative - why keep the fact that you can resign so obscure? These guys complaining about it / missing it entirely just confirm something I've thought about every time the first tutorial made me die to that goat after the first. Wait a sec, this isn't true! There's almost never any point to dying, I can always just resign. Been meaning to bring it up for ages...

There really are only a few ways to die once you figure that out, and the only reason it's tricky to figure out is because the button isn't right below the inventory where it's obvious that it exists all the time...
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby keithburgun on Thu May 09, 2013 9:28 pm

Been thinking about this a bit more, and reading your responses. Just to clarify the most important point, here's what I think.

My Problem: Death makes no sense in Desktop Dungeons because the only time someone would ever experience it is if they misclick or if they've run out of moves (in which case it could just as well be resign). Under no circumstances* does death occur in a way that really thematically justifies death. It's always either "oh shit, misclicked!", or "Ah, ran out of moves, gotta kill myself now." Neither of these is a good mechanical pairing for the thematic concept of "death".

The reason you feel like we're arguing past each other is because you think that I'm advocating just ripping it out and putting nothing in its place. I might have come across that way, but the more I think of it, I realize that you really need something to *replace* death.

I *agree* with you that all else being equal, the game is better off with death

When I said "timer", I didn't mean real-time timer, I meant turns, but nevermind that and my other suggestions. There's a million things that could be tried, really. Here's one example:

- Objective is to beat a high score.
- Game End condition is triggered when the last "middle area tile" is uncovered (tiles that are within 4 tiles of the center of the map, maybe they're colored differently and you can see a highlight of where they are in the black before they're revealed)
- When the game ends, you win if you beat your high score, and you lose if you do not. Or you can use terms like "Pass" / "Fail" or something.


* Possibly the only circumstance would be a character that has some random dodge chance like the thief or whatever had in the alpha (Not sure if that's still in the beta)
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Lujo on Thu May 09, 2013 9:55 pm

The reason you are arguing past each other is that you misunderstand the purpose of "death" in the game, which is a direct concequence of them having labeled something else entirely as "death". Dying is not ment to mean the failure of a run, it's ment to be an electric shock which:

1) Keeps you from even trying to do things which you shouldn't (things labeled "death")
3) Force you to reconsider your tactics / expend resources to avoid it, but keep on the track (drink a potion to keep fighting a monster, and so on and so forth).
2) Makes you try just about anything else because anything that doesn't result in it death is prefferable to it. And the game expects you to try some really weird sh?t.
4) Put you in a heightened emotional state and give you a personal grudge against stuff that could end your run in a blink of an eye

But the failure of a run has nothing to do with death - it's already running out of resources, and depending on your strat this can mean various resources. The point of the game is to out resource the bosses. Never getting yourself into a position where the boss hit prediction goes red. "Not dieing" in advance. Now, whether you actualy go on and click or resign is irrelevant at that point. There is a multitude of ways to screw yourself over in this game and you needn't die once.

The reason missclick deaths are so frustrating and moronic is that the fear of death (or resigning) is what drives you to do whatever it is you do - and as the game up's the stake it starts asking you to do crazy stuff in order "to not die - in advance". You do your best to avoid dieing - and then all your efforts get taken away from you in a way which is or seems to be totaly out of your hands. It's maddning!

But death as such has to be there. And you need not even ever die, but you have to have a chance to die and expirience loss. In the end, you needn't lose anything in game - just losing time and energy is enough to drive you to make your time and energy well spent instead of fruitless. Enough to cause much frustration, potentially even more than any in game loss would. So there really should and could be a compromise solution. Because the crazy vets who never die and always resign are actually the most careful guys who get pedantic enough to go through VGT because they fear losing any more time and energy to the game.

I'm really curious how my suggestion for a 2 saving graces token would pan out and if it was ever properly tested. It would retain all the virtues of "deadly game", yet give a decent enough protection from missclicks. Having, say, 2 "backsies" if you equip a token would let anyone walk deep enough into a run to get emotionaly invested into a victory and 10 times as paranoid once he runs out.
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby keithburgun on Thu May 09, 2013 11:17 pm

Just to clarify, by no means am I one of those "anti-permadeath" people. In fact, I think ALL strategy games need to have permanent consequences. So I'm not saying "wahhh death, it's too mean" or anything remotely like that. I'm saying specifically death, as implemented, specifically in this system, does not make sense.
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Sidestepper on Thu May 09, 2013 11:41 pm

Still hoping for an ultra-hardcore option where QCF sends someone to punch you in the face every time you die in game
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby The Avatar on Fri May 10, 2013 4:14 am

Wow. I look away for my workday and a huge discussion pops up.

@keithburgen: Desktop Dungeons is not a game about score. There are enough easier options (or at least there should be) that there is really no need to socre. Also, you can usually tell how well you did. If you were one shot from killing the boss that's better than getting him halfway down. Also randomness is not a good idea. Desktop Dungeons is, IMO, better viewed as a puzzle than a rogue-like, and dying be randomness would be like losing the last piece pf a 1000 piece puzzle. Infuriating. Also. This applies for alternate ending conditions. The key to a puzzle is completing it. Do an easier puzzle (dungeon for the metaphor) if it is too hard, and use that as learning material and practice so you can complete the harder ones. These are just my thoughts feel free to take them with a grain of salt.
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Waterd103 on Fri May 10, 2013 1:21 pm

\Here is the problem with a challenge or dungeon being easier if you unlock more stuff, now the game is not only a dungeon itself but how you approach and the order you do approach each dungeon. That is terrible imo. I guess my major problem is that to me DD alpha was going to be something like a rougelike or a puzzle game like minesweeper, i open the game, i start new game, I die or lose, close the game, and next game, whatever happend previous day has NOTHING to do with it. That is because desktop games as i call them 20 minute games to cover some free time one has, are optimal so. Like spectromancer or minesweeper or Crimson lands (games i use as desktop games).
Now it seems that DD is not like that, it doesn't even try to be this. Ive spend a few hours for interest in this game spending most of time bored in easy challenges, the other time in a challenge that is way harder that "what actually can be if i do the right order in how i approach quests" And dying a lot of times not because a decision but misclick.

The experience has been overall very bad and im done with the game
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby Waterd103 on Fri May 10, 2013 3:06 pm

Btw there is no ¨recommendation¨ for doing the gold fighter, or tooltip that hint witch and alchemist is needed
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Re: Suggestion - Warning

Postby dislekcia on Fri May 10, 2013 3:17 pm

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