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Re: Suggestion - Warning

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:40 pm
by dislekcia
Waterd103 wrote:Btw there is no ¨recommendation¨ for doing the gold fighter, or tooltip that hint witch and alchemist is needed

Whoa, totally thought there was. Thanks.

Refund went through, BTW.

Re: Suggestion - Warning

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 6:26 pm
by Waterd103
I'm sorry to hear that you didn't enjoy the game. So your major problem was that you hit a challenge (Fighter Gold) that you felt you couldn't beat without unlocking other things in the game?

My major problem was the direction of the game. I fell the idea of DD is great for a desktop game for a game about self contained runs. A game of "I have 20 minutes, i will do a DD run". I just played enough to conclude"This is not a game I'm really interested, because it's not about self contained runs". I thought that maybe I could still play that way. But no, you can't. The fighter gold challenge just showed why. Because the game is not about each particular run but about the bigger game of deciding what to unlock when, trying to get gold so the next run is easier or the right items, or decide to do a particular run only if one have Certain items.
Basically the real game is bigger than a self contained run, is about what run to do next and with what. Even what to unlock next. I'm not interested on all that.
So the major problem was about the fighter gold challenge PROVING that the game is not about self contained runs but about a "bigger" game than that.

What made you keep playing that as opposed to playing other dungeons, challenges or puzzles? You beat your head against Fighter Gold 21 times. At the very least that points to a potential mis-timing of that challenge from our side, maybe... I dunno.

Why would I stop playing? For first time in the game i feel challenged, and I should back from it? No way. If there is a challenge I want to overcome it, that's how one improve at things. If a perfect player can win 80-90% of the time that challenge with what i had unlocked I want to improve until i do it.
But suddenly it seems maybe is not lack of skill, is lack of unlocked content? Maybe? not knowing is really frustrating. If i know it's because lack of unlocked content then that just rage me because that's not what is fun to the game to me, as i said i want self contained runs, and what happens "in the kingdom" have 0 impact on my game. That is not the game I'm looking for (for WHY is not the game i'm looking for is very long and i could write it on request, but it's long).
I would not have this frustration if it was very clear that that the "kingdom" is a game on itself. So a run is actually very very long and the game is about knowing or finding out what to unlock first and when one has unlocked the right stuff (if that is the game though it's really poor on that side though)

You do realise that you've played over 12 hours of the game so far, right? I'll refund you, sure, it just felt a little weird until I realised that this was about testing the beta, not deciding that 12+ hours of play wasn't worth $10 ;) Thanks for helping, hopefully we can still use your feedback to make the game better.

I wouldn't mind spend 200 dollars for a game i truly love, I've spend more money for games i really enjoy. It's not about that is that I was encourage to "free trial" from my point of view, and I was interested because as I said the game has very neat concept, a concept that imo has potential to be a a great game to me. Have no doubt that once released a lot of "similar concept" games are gonna pop out, because the concept is great. So I was interested what you did with it. I strongly disagree on the execution on many sides, I think you have a amazing idea, but what you did with it is....meh at best to me. Funny thing my GF was watching me play and ask me about the game and if it was good, I said "no" then she ask me what ive spent all day playing it "because it's extremly interesting" It's so interesting in fact that i've for years considering starting my own gaming company (right now i spend a lot of time talking with designers with their own very small companies and testing or giving feedback on games) And If i have to make a singleplayer game, i'm right now 90% sure that it would be a game with a similar concept than DD. The idea is just amazing, that's what makes me more sad that i'm COMPLETLY disagree with the execution.

Actually, it's a little strange that you dislike DD's progression so much when that's a key part of what makes it like minesweeper for us: There's simply too much content in the game for it to be played in one session/sitting, so players keep coming back to it and each time they do, the game gives them quests to push them to learn new stuff. Fighter Gold is doable as you're seeing it now, it's just that you hadn't played enough of the rest of the game to have the skills to beat it. That's quite an interesting perspective on the game, I appreciate you speaking up about it, because now I'll ponder it the rest of the weekend.

I don't see how the progression makes it like minesweeper, minesweeper you open game, start, play, close the game, and whatever happened last session or run has exactly 0 impact on the next.
A single player i still play a lot is Master of Orion. Same thing, I open, run, close, next run, nothing changed.
Adom, same, open, run , game ends, close. Next run, no impact whatever happened in the last run.

If you think someone can beat fighter gold with the items i had available and no alchemist and witch, i'm very interested in seeing a youtube video of someone pulling it out 2 out of 3 times.

If I can't beat fighter gold because i didn't had the skills, that is no problem, but if i can't beat it because I hadn't unlock enough...... That may be ok for you, to me is red sign of "not play this game"

Re: Suggestion - Warning

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:12 pm
by Lujo
So if they pretty much reskinned the alpha but kept it as is you'd buy it? Or does it too have too much progression for you?

Just curious because if there's a market of people with your viewpoint it'd make a neat way to earn cash on the side with possibly not all that much effort. ^^

And I understand fully what you mean (and have my own oppinions on it different than yours, yours seem... dubiously entitled, don't take offense). I'm not sure what it means in the big picture. What you're looking for is technicaly a single player boardgame, or a puzzle game and the RPG elements (not the flavour ones) seem to completely kill it for you. Yes? But the idea itself is sort of the best thing since sliced bread, yes?

Re: Suggestion - Warning

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:21 pm
by ChasGB
Waterd103 wrote:If you think someone can beat fighter gold with the items i had available and no alchemist and witch, i'm very interested in seeing a youtube video of someone pulling it out 2 out of 3 times.

If I can't beat fighter gold because i didn't had the skills, that is no problem, but if i can't beat it because I hadn't unlock enough...... That may be ok for you, to me is red sign of "not play this game"

FWIW, I think there's some merit to this. When I first started playing and unlocking new dungeons, I was just selecting race and class and having at it. I'd unlocked some preps, but between attempting to be frugal with gold and inexperience, in retrospect I was unwittingly handicapping myself to Purist runs. I did learn to ignore my cheapness and start using preps after a while, but not at first.

On the subject of accidental deaths, I'm philosophically against the "warning button" but I'm playing on the road right now with a laptop and trackpad, and it's a real problem. Basically, I just accidentally died on three games in a row simply because a trackpad will sometimes register a finger being near it as a "click." Trackpads also have a tendency of registering finger movements as "clicks" upon a finger's initial contact with the trackpad.

I'm not sure what the best remedy for this is. Having to reconfigure laptop hardware settings to properly enjoy DD is not exactly elegant. Considering that DD is a lightweight game, it's well suited to play on laptops during travel, a situation where this trackpad issue can cause some frustration. Further, how does this bode for this game's adaptation to mobile platforms?

From a purely platform standpoint, there's some merit to a "Warning" button. I don't think that that's the right reason for implementing a "Warning" popup, but it's definitely something that begs consideration as DD proliferates to a larger audience that will play it on trackpads and mobile devices.

Re: Suggestion - Warning

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:13 pm
by The Avatar
Fighter Gold can be beaten with all you have unlocked (or nothing unlocked by the fighter). Still, pulling it two out of three times with what you have is a bit... unrealistic. With what you have, fighter gold is like playing extra-super-hard minesweeper, and with everything it is like playing hard minesweeper. No matter how good you are at minesweeper, you will not beat extra-super-hard minesweeper simply because you could have bad luck and hit a mine on your first guess. On the other hand a pro playing hard minesweeper can do this. All of the gold challenges are some of the toughest things in the game (and this should definitely be better communicated) so without preps pulling two out of three would require very good luck for the best of players.

Re: Suggestion - Warning

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 9:11 pm
by Waterd103
The first click death is really not a problem in minesweeper because...well it takes your first second of time and then your restart. After the first click, at least in expert most good players can do 2/3 no problem at all.
My point? really if the winning rate of an optimal player is less than 66% , there is too much luck involved imo.
I'm still interesting in viewing a youtube video of someone completing that challenge without preps.
However, really if the "solution" is to attempt 30 times hoping to be lucky...that's just terrible.

Re: Suggestion - Warning

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 9:46 pm
by The Avatar
Not 30, but maybe 5. It really is a short challenge too. What preps do you have, or are you attempting it purist?

EDIT: Scratch that. It took me two tries, purist, and without too much luck. I even made a few really dumb mistakes.

Re: Suggestion - Warning

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:02 pm
by Waterd103
can you make a youtube video or similar?

Re: Suggestion - Warning

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:18 pm
by The Avatar
Sure. Do you want to see me beat it purist? Further on the stats, more like 2 out of 5, probably due to dumb mistakes and a couple bad luck draws.

Re: Suggestion - Warning

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:20 pm
by Lujo
Or at least tell me what race you went with? I've been trying with the shield at least with a goblin and a halfling, but no luck. Must be doing somethign wrong since I can't even reash the boss.

But it's both a short challenge, a very different challenge than the regular gameplay looks like, and doesn't really unlock anything...