Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby Dreamdancer on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:58 am

Gnome Bloodmages especially with the Trisword are also really newbie friendly, i must know it :)
Nice damage boost and in the end one has a minimum of 28% Sanguine, with the Manapotions from conversion this goes even far higher -> 3-4 blood pools for a full heal
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby Darvin on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:43 am

Halflings and Gnomes with Triswords are awesome. Try a Gnome Warlord with the Trisword (next version, after they fix the Warlord bug), or a Halfling Rogue (just need to find a god who can boost your HP), or a Halfling Priest or Halfling Berserker. All work breathtakingly well.
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby Lujo on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:23 am

The so called Trilings were a big staple and a definite foo strat back in the day when only Health Potions fueled Trisword. I suppose the gnomes are even better now, but Triling Priests are another thing worth mentioning ^^ Actually it was a no-brainer broken strat, but the introduction of a gold cost to fueling the trisword made it compete with strats that are fueled by money, so it's deffinitely more proper foo now.

It's actually a big argument in favor of Martyr Wraps - they mesh better with conversion heavy strats and give out big damage for resistance stackers. Then again, Triling Monks would really be silly if Humans and Orcs didn't just work better (or do they?). Triling paladins, on the other hand - god...

One thing we might've not stressed enough is that the GETINDAERE glyph, even without the dodge prediction is a deffinite foo element, if not outright broken. 3 mana for a hit on anything provided it's the last one? It gets you places.
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby The Avatar on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:44 pm

I think GETINDARE belongs on the list. It's not that obvious at first, but it saves an ENORMOUS amount of resources.
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby Dreamdancer on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:06 pm

I think first strike and dodge is what makes the Rogue so awesome. First one thinks it might be the +40% damage. But first strike saves much more ressources and if one finds GETINDARE, the +40% damage bonus are only a small cookie after a solid meal.
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby Lujo on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:19 pm

The Avatar wrote:I think GETINDARE belongs on the list. It's not that obvious at first, but it saves an ENORMOUS amount of resources.


Dreamdancer wrote:I think first strike and dodge is what makes the Rogue so awesome. First one thinks it might be the +40% damage. But first strike saves much more ressources and if one finds GETINDARE, the +40% damage bonus are only a small cookie after a solid meal.


Yep. There was a collective moment of: "Hmmmm, could we do it without GETINDARE?" when we first watched the Gaan'Telet vids. Nobody was even sure just how much resources it saved, and it even got buffed at some point previously, but we've wisend up since then :)

Namtar's ward is awesome with a free DP per level. Rogue get's a free dodge (resouceless attack) per monster, more or less.
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby Darvin on Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:52 pm

Then again, Triling Monks would really be silly if Humans and Orcs didn't just work better (or do they?).

Trilling Monks work just fine, thank you very much. Prep attack bonus up to your nose, then chug-chug-chug-chug...

I think GETINDARE belongs on the list. It's not that obvious at first, but it saves an ENORMOUS amount of resources.

It isn't easy for beginners to pick up, and it works just as well (if not even better) in vicious scenarios so it never actually gets replaced.

. There was a collective moment of: "Hmmmm, could we do it without GETINDARE?" when we first watched the Gaan'Telet vids

BYSSEPS is more important, IMO. Shredding Horatio's resistances? Priceless.

Post-buff GETINDARE remains a close second. In a general sense it's by far the strongest glyph in the game, right up there with pre-nerf CYDSTEPP.
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby Lujo on Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:25 pm

Darvin wrote:
Then again, Triling Monks would really be silly if Humans and Orcs didn't just work better (or do they?).

Trilling Monks work just fine, thank you very much. Prep attack bonus up to your nose, then chug-chug-chug-chug...


True that ^^

Darvin wrote:
I think GETINDARE belongs on the list. It's not that obvious at first, but it saves an ENORMOUS amount of resources.

It isn't easy for beginners to pick up, and it works just as well (if not even better) in vicious scenarios so it never actually gets replaced.


Yeah, that is the thing... I mean there's other stuff you can do with WHEYTWUT, but in terms of raw power... Not so much. I know I've been using GETINDARE a lot more than my brain in too many runs, and right now I'm blatantly fooing some tricky early game stuff with a GETINDARE rogue, gotta quit that right away.

Darvin wrote:
. There was a collective moment of: "Hmmmm, could we do it without GETINDARE?" when we first watched the Gaan'Telet vids

BYSSEPS is more important, IMO. Shredding Horatio's resistances? Priceless.


For the fight itself, yes, except the fight is/was doable with just the hack and the usual damage buffage. Getting TO him in shape to put up a fight with and without GETINDARE? Odrer of magnitude in difference when it comes to difficulty, and I think impossible for at least a handfull if not most classes in case of without... Just on the first strike basis, no dodge shennanigans. A trek to Horatio is where you can really see just how much damage you can pull out of your behind with just a GETINDARE.

Darvin wrote:
In a general sense it's by far the strongest glyph in the game, right up there with pre-nerf CYDSTEPP.


Yep, pretty much. Funny thing is, a cheap first strike effect was always this strong, we just never really picked up on it because it seemed so mundane. Starting monsters have it, popular classes had it, it cost 3 mana, didn't stack with itself in any way... Then you do the math (lol wrote meth), put a finger on your forhead and go "Hmmmmmmmm".

I'm really starting to think it needs something done to it.
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby Darvin on Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:48 pm

I'm really starting to think it needs something done to it.

I'd agree; the only reason it's been left as-is for so long is because the devs are loath to make changes this deep in development. This is especially egregious with the more expensive WEYTWUT being left out in the cold.

Tamest possible nerf would be to move GETINDARE to 5 MP.
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Re: Foo Strats (Or Newbie Crutches?)

Postby Lujo on Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:57 pm

Well it IS possible to mess puzzles up by fiddling with the cost, but I'd wager most of the vet's could agree on that. It's been overlooked rather than truly underpowered, and if it did warrant a buff at all, a straight up buff that made it this powerfull probably wasn't a good idea in retrospect. I know the dev's were hesitant to make it apply to the Rogue, and that turned out to be a good assesment on their part too.

Maybe we can invoke the "you guys said we'll see how it goes with the GETINDARE buff" from way back then and answer with a late but sincere "we saw, it's too good, please do nerf it a bit?".

I whish one of them would tell us if straight up GETINDARE dodge prediction abuse was the intended way of doing Rogue Silver or is it just unintended? Last time I had heaps of trouble there, this time I just used the statues to set up my Dodges and whiped the floor with everything... Now that I think about it, if 101% gaze doesn't kill you on a dodge, I was a dope, and could've done it even easier -.-'

Removing the dodge prediction would also work wonders in the stright up nerf department. It's strange that the sensible policy of there not biend a +dodge item was in the end screwed over by there now being a stackable +dodge and dodge prediction quasi-item wich costs no gold. Having TT fork one over on worship was also a bit of strange move in my eyes it's not like the bugger really needed a buff (and my choice would've been WHEYTWUT as he for some reason gives piety for using it).
Last edited by Lujo on Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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