Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

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Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby Lujo on Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:23 pm

This thread came about as an effort not to pollute the world records thread. Before anyone gets a heartattack, a mind stroke or goes frothing in the mouth, groaning, pan-pantheon cursing and all that: No I will not go on a rampage over this or anything. And yes, this is pretty accurate, and no, noone's mandated by anything to do anything about it and I don't think otherwise, disclaimers, disclaimers... (it's also really tame)

The moved post:

And as for the Rogue and GETINDARE... You know what, I'm sort of dreading the rather warranted nerf because it was flavour of the week for ages. God knows how many people are relying on it out there, and if the backlash after the Monk nerfs is any indicator then I'm really hesitant to push the issue. Rogue isn't just broken in-dungeon, he's also off the charts as far as kingdom development goes - he unlocks Gorgons, Gloves Of Midas and is a prerequisite for TT (who spawns in the Southern Swamp once you unlock EM and the Rogue). And Rogue Silver is really, really easy with dodge prediction on GETINDARE. He probably has quite a few fans...

I mean, Rogue probably needs a subtle rework, something like, +10% damage every 2 levels starting with 1 as bonus with a similar anti-scaling mech for his health, to make him become more of a glass cannon as he gains levels. I'm not even sure about the % based nature of his attack bonus. Once upon a time base damage was rare, these days it seems it's the other way around. GETINDARE probably needs a cost increse, losing the dodge prediction or both. And the only thing I can come up with for the kingdom development is moving the Gloves of Midas to the Thief Silver and the Balanced Dagger to the Rogue Silver, with the lampshade of "You were looking for the gloves but it turns out some damned thief beat you to it. Resolute not to leave emptyhanded, you settle for a swanky dagger which fit's your approach to lawbreaking rather more than fancy winterwear".

But on the other hand, what I did up there (and what you (*Avatar) did multiple times insanely fast) is a case of "adjusted for VICIOUS romping in EASY". I mean, you're supposed and capable of killing lvl 10's at lvl 4 - using a mapfull of resources to kill one lvl 10 guy at lvl 1 with much of the same tools is not all that hard. I'm not sure it would work against particular HARD bosses, allthough posting some wins of that nature might ring a few bells in south africa.


I'll move the picture over here later, and I'm considering making a video of the Rogue Silver GETINDARE shannenigans because I'd like to try doing them again for fun. Anyway, all of this might be an adressable issue, blah, blah, it's all ther, have at it...

(and ther's also bits and pieces of relevant discussion I might copy/move from the foo strats thread, and some other stuff)

DISCLAIMER 2: I'm also aware that making a thread might be redundant and that the dev's are probably well aware of it, I'm just tired of stuff related to this sneaking into every post I make and I'd just like a receptacle for all things Rogue and GETINDARE related. Other expirienced players have come to about the same conclusions, and just having it in one place might be a good idea, and something could even be done about it at this late hour (but judging from no codex ETA, and all the artwork and interface stuff that needs to get done, it's probably not to late even for a firm adressal of this particular issue).
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby Lujo on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:45 pm

After a HARD dungeon expirience in Shifting Passages, I'm more convinced it's the GETINDARE rather than the rogue. At least in a dungeon which doesn't favour him.
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby q 3 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:16 pm

DD was balanced from the very beginning with "random, unpredictable" dodging in mind. Dodge prediction has always been a potential problem with that, since removing the "unpredictable" part is a massive power boost. (I've never liked the "random" part, personally, and I think I once suggested making all dodges guaranteed, but rare - e.g. a Rogue loses his % chance but starts with 2 or 3 potions of dodge, and more potions would only ever be available at a very steep cost.)

(I also never got the complaints about GETINDARE being too weak, personally - a free hit for 3 MP is strong stuff.)
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby Darvin on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:34 pm

My complaint with GETINDARE has always been more regarding its overlap with the Assassin/Rogue and WEYTWUT, rather than its inherent strength.
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby Lujo on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:57 pm

Darvin wrote:My complaint with GETINDARE has always been more regarding its overlap with the Assassin/Rogue and WEYTWUT, rather than its inherent strength.


I wasn't fully aware of it's inherent strenght untill silly bussines started cropping up. But i know, point of complaints way back then was "diversify" or "make more distinct", not "buff to conspicuous level". Unfortunately the latter happened.

Not that it's not distinct now :D

q 3 wrote:(I also never got the complaints about GETINDARE being too weak, personally - a free hit for 3 MP is strong stuff.)


To a degree me neither, took a while for this to get through and become a consensus. To be fair, there wasn't so much stuff you can chain (or rather there might have been, but people thought there' isn't enough). Plus, old cydstepp really spoiled us in that regard.
Last edited by Lujo on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby Darvin on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:01 pm

Not that it's not distinct now

It has the distinction of being the most powerful glyph in the game, bar none.
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby Lujo on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:09 pm

Darvin wrote:
Not that it's not distinct now

It has the distinction of being the most powerful glyph in the game, bar none.


Now you know what old cydstepp looked like to me back when I was grinding that axe before I joined the forums* :D Well, tbh, even that wasn't this strong, which is saying something.

To be even honester, the dodge predicition surprised me too when they put it on GETINDARE. It needed more incetive to use, not power. TT potion mongering with dedicated worship and opportunity cost investment was powerfull enough, I always though the effect was well worth the necessary hassle to set the confirmed dodge up...

(*actively)
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby Darvin on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:22 pm

Now you know what old cydstepp looked like to me back when I was grinding that axe before I joined the forums*

Back then we had 3-MP HALPMEH and 33% dragonshield. Burning was attached to an obscure item and few players had figured it out, but it was uncapped and non-terminating so attacking another monster wouldn't interfere with building stacks. Trust me when I say fireballs could be just as powerful. The strength potion wouldn't time out back then on knockback damage, so you could have wickedly crushing PISORF's. Dodge prediction GETINDARE would have fit in just fine in those days; everything was broken, and by comparison the lesser glyphs were weak.
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby Lujo on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:25 pm

Darvin wrote:
Now you know what old cydstepp looked like to me back when I was grinding that axe before I joined the forums*

Back then we had 3-MP HALPMEH and 33% dragonshield. Burning was attached to an obscure item and few players had figured it out, but it was uncapped and non-terminating so attacking another monster wouldn't interfere with building stacks. Trust me when I say fireballs could be just as powerful. The strength potion wouldn't time out back then on knockback damage, so you could have wickedly crushing PISORF's. Dodge prediction GETINDARE would have fit in just fine in those days; everything was broken, and by comparison the lesser glyphs were weak.


I also remember a certain three pronged sword which gave you 27 damage if you had nothing in your inventory and a class with 50% resist everything which didn't have slots for anything else.

We've come a long way :)
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby Darvin on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:27 pm

I also remember a certain three pronged sword which gave you 27 damage if you had nothing in your inventory and a class with 50% resist everything which didn't have slots for anything else.

Actually, I believe by the point in time I'm referencing it had been moved to +3 base damage on each level-up, making said three-pronged item useful for everyone and largely an equal of the (incredibly-overpowered) dragonshield of the time.

Yes, yes we've come a long way. Though keep in mind most of the dungeons have been significantly toned down along with the players. I remember when Stheno first arrived she had around 1000 HP...
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