Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby Lujo on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:32 pm

Darvin wrote:
I also remember a certain three pronged sword which gave you 27 damage if you had nothing in your inventory and a class with 50% resist everything which didn't have slots for anything else.

Actually, I believe by the point in time I'm referencing it had been moved to +3 base damage on each level-up, making said three-pronged item useful for everyone and largely an equal of the (incredibly-overpowered) dragonshield of the time.

Yes, yes we've come a long way. Though keep in mind most of the dungeons have been significantly toned down along with the players. I remember when Stheno first arrived she had around 1000 HP...


Would you believe that I never really understood how Stheno went from being a though and challening boss to a pushover. I still overprep for Hex ruins and can never really believe when I walk over it. It was a really cool concept that dungeon, and the first expirience really stuck. A small pet gripe of mine is that something so cool was moved to the front while the rather generic Ick Swamp was moved further south...

EDIT: On the other hand, I'm also probably the only person who's tried and tried and only managed to complete Paladin gold and found it easy. And not one other gold challenge -.-'

But anyway, the GETINDARE and the Rogue... GETINDARE aside (even though it's what's pushing the Rogue insane these days), the Rogue unlock being too strong at a point in time when it can happen is a bit worrying regardless of whether they finaly nerf him or not. Not sure if I can get it across to someone who's not recently had a new profile and took his time with it...
Last edited by Lujo on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby Darvin on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:36 pm

Last time I started a new profile was just before TT and EM got swapped.
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby Lujo on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:38 pm

Darvin wrote:Last time I started a new profile was just before TT and EM got swapped.


Lot's had changed. I'll make a writeup when I'm done with what looks to me like early game, using the notes I've been making. It's sooooo much better than ever, so few kinks away from being perfect (well, from my point of view, but I'm doing my best to be objective). But the few kinks do stand out. Luckily they're mostly easily fixable stuff, and really, really few.
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby TigerKnee on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:49 am

For everyone saying "Oh, first strike for 3 MP was already OP in the past!", not really.

In the past it was actually pretty hard to actually utilize First Strike in a way that wasn't already covered mostly by 3 MP Halpmeh or heck, sometimes even Fireball.
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby Lujo on Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:06 am

TigerKnee wrote:For everyone saying "Oh, first strike for 3 MP was already OP in the past!", not really.

In the past it was actually pretty hard to actually utilize First Strike in a way that wasn't already covered mostly by 3 MP Halpmeh or heck, sometimes even Fireball.


Not OP, just strong. First strike on monsters is, beyond other things, a couter o first strike on players. Dodge prediction makes it so that you can go through it, which greatly reduces the nuber of situations where you don't want GETINDARE. Being so cost-efficent, GETINDARE means the Rogue can literally first strike anything.

Now, maybe the right thing to do really is to just increse the MP cost of GETINDARE to 5. It won't do much, because it can still be worked into the hit, fireball, fireball, hit routine (showcased in my Gaan'Telet runs) with the aid of the +2 Mana pendant and the 13 mana you get from exploration (even for the berserker), but having to lug around the pendant (a really useless item right now) would cost you another inventory slot and a bit of gold, which is the least that can be done with such a powerfull effect. And it would reduce the spammability which sort of certifies "more powerfull cydstepp" to anyone.

As for the Rogue rework - I just whish they made him to play more like the other kids and have to actually level up to get strong. Even the monk needs levels to make use of his broken regeneration, the Rogues static damgage boost, and first strike, means he can do stuff like this with so little in the way of preps and unlocks that it isn't even funny:

Image

(I also whish the victory screen showed your preps so I wouldn't have to explain that this was done with no prepped elite items, and only one STR and Quicksilver potion)
Last edited by Lujo on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby The Avatar on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:44 pm

No Tri-Sword? How did you get damage that high?
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I speak chaos.
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby Lujo on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:57 pm

The Avatar wrote:No Tri-Sword? How did you get damage that high?


There was a tri-sword (sorry about misleading there, what I ment to say was no prepped ELITE items), I actually fired up the old buggy bankrupt account.

The preps only took 80 gold I think (not sure, but not much more than that), and I couldn't even get into the bonus subdungeon -.-' Had 4 potions left over and couldn't feed them to the tri-sword, and I only used Taurog (but no piety for even all the gear).

Preps were, I think - Trisword, more glyphs, Quicksilver, STR and... that's it think. Maybe black market. The hits were, I think, One CYDSTEPP use, one Getindare set up dodge, one Quicksilver dodge, one Badge of Courage DP, one natural dodge from being hit twice with DP's for setup and the first strike. I think.

EDIT: It was a really miserable accidentaly minimalist run. A not-even-all-that-cheezy one could probably level even SMM.

If Yin Yang were no XP I might've been able to squeeze more DP's out of the subdungeon :)
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Re: Rogue's, GETINDARE and all that

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:44 am

Disclaimer on the "Incresing mana cost of GETINDARE would fix it" suggestion, or rather appology. I don't know where I got the Fireball + Fireball + Getindare = 13 mana. It's 15 now, and would be 17 if GETINDARE was nerfed. It's also 15 when you take Mystic Balance, so I really don't have a clue how I got there.

But limiting the spam would probably be a good idea in any case, unless they simply take the dodge prediction off.
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