Cocise Early Game Feedback Writeup

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Cocise Early Game Feedback Writeup

Postby Lujo on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:38 pm

Ok, so, instead of expecting the dev's and the broader community to go through my extensive notes, I decided to make a concise writeup with feedback on the state of the early game. I got pretty much nothing but praise for the devs, and I hope this isn't seen as spam, threats, arrogance, but a handy list of stuff for their and our preusal if we all want to iron out the last few kinks with the early game before release. Without further ado:


Early game: - Unlocked all 1st, and 2nd tier classes, all the gods, done all the puzzles (gods, halflings, gnomes, intro, trolls), bank lvl 2 (i did 3 but that's midgame), all 1st tier bronze (2 silver), done the directional dungeon quests, 2 "whole tier runs" in den of danger, unlocked Tinker (and Crusader), Witch, Blacksmith lvl 2, Alchemist lvl 2, Bazzar lvl 2, and bought out all the preps. Am currently sitting at about 3500 gold. Done some of the more "mid-game" stuff because it was doable (Entire Rogue challenge set, Bank 3)

27 things got a label either Like or Big Like in the notes, and some of them were great or a terrific refreshment and a noticable improvement on the way things were on my last playthrough. It has been the most pleasant and enjoyable playthrough yet, and I didn't feel forced to cheeze anywhere close as on some previous ones. The game, as far as this segment is concerned is really just about ready to ship (IMO).



GAME FLOW - Major change that really made it work for me is the fact that you don't have to unlock the Guild lvl2 right away. This means no wraith boss, and that means more time to explore the game without the chance of running into the wraiths. I actually unlocked it last this time around, and was very glad for being able to do just that.

The fact that racial subdungeons now appear right away in the first directional dungeons and aside natural ones, was also a huge plus in that they took 0 scumming. Don't know if this was intended, but it made the expirience more pleasant and nice.

Issue no. 1 - If the guild and the west in general was ment to be the intended unlock/direction priority, then there is a problem, because currently the Rogue unlock is a lot easier on the player than the Berserker one. To such a degree that I count avoiding the Berserker unlock untill the latest possible moment as a big Like factor which made this playthrough stand apart as best. Not sure anything should or can be done, but just putting it here.

Issue no. 2 - The gap between bank lvl 2 and bank lvl 3 gold cap is huge, and the puzzles and bagdes supply enough gold that if you don't die too much and are taking your time, you're incentivised to rush the third unlock before you are ready to tackle the quest. A new middling bank level with an appropriate quest would probably do the game flow a world of good. Gold overflow was pushing me into midgame ond out of the early game which I intended to test more thoroghly.

Issue no. 2.5 - The EDIT: BAZZAR lvl 2 quest, with the massive buyout is also rather difficult to pull off without unlocking the Rogue, and will be especially more so if TT is actually put in the second tier southern directional dungeon. The big offender here is the Badge of courage, but acidentally unlocking the Mage Plate through wizard silver like I did is also a difficulty spike as far as it's concerned. EDIT: Only putting it here to note how the Rogue unlock gets a big incentive from it, I don't suppose anythign can/will be done to the items.

Issue no. 3 - I've had the Philosopher Stone spawn inside of a class challenge (Wizard 3).

Issue no. 4 - The witch unlock quest fires up at a wrong time considering where you eventually find her. And she's in the thematicaly most wrong place to be flavour wise. I've thought about it, and I can see that she's where she is because there isn't an appropriate place for her to be, but as long as people are supposed to go west rather than east, maybe she could be moved? But then the burn salve unlock is too easy to grab and people could go nuts with EM desecrations sooner... I'm just confused as to whether her unlock (not the quest chain) is ment to be an early game thing, or a mid game thing.


DUNGEONS

Well, there is a distinct difference between the Venture Cave and the Den of Danger in that the den has walls on the outer rims while the cave doesn't. This makes WONNAFYT use really helpfull and easy in the cave, while being rather tricky in the den (which makes it more difficult). Might be intended I don't know, but it's noticable...

The new cramped algorythim is otherwise working very well in recreating the alpha vibe of compromise making and being minorly screwed by RNG, big props.

Issue The first directional dungeons are rather hard early game with non-intended classes. Or maybe it's just the western one. Doing that one with a Wizard wass noticably more difficult. Since there is not much reason to enter them with non-intended classes, and my bank was getting flooded, I couldn't really test the other ones this way, allthough I intended to. This makes them both unatractive reward wise and difficult. If there is a later chain of quests which takes you there, then all is good, if not, there's a place for one (doing each of them purist with off classes?)

EDIT: I've just noticed that the first 2 complicated tasks do in fact take you to the first directional dungeons. All the more reason to relocate the witch :)


CLASSES

The first tier classes are all servicable, except for the wizard who is still plainly more difficult in most cases than the others. I haven't tried the priest in unfavourable conditions too much, but he seemed to handle the Den better than the Wizard did. The second tier classes are a lot more powerfull, even though I'll concede that it has to do with expirience. Among them I'd say the Berserker's ultimately the most difficult, but also the most straightforward.

Other than that, no gripes. Everyone but the wizard is rather easy to play in the 1st tier, and everybody but the berserker is ungodly broken (by comparison) in the 2nd tier, with the Rogue being pushed overboard by the GETINDARE changes.


PUZZLES

I liked most, loved some, and found the following difficult:

Halfling 2 and 3 - reached for the forums, turned out 2nd one was my fault, and the 3rd one was just unexpected)
Drac 2 - had me reaching for the solution, Drac 3 was also really difficult. Mostly because they rely on mechanics which differ from the severly limited way in which Drac is used in game.
Jehora 1 (and 2) - Are actually straightforward, except they require sequencing which gives you relevent information which is obvious only after you make a move (calculating the damage increase that comes from converting) Guess it's my blind spot.
Soko Trolls no.3 - is for some reason more difficult than the other for me, and always was. I finished the others in one try with resources left over, this one took a lot.

Otherwise the hints are great, and so are the flavours, and you guys are awesome.


SUBDUNGEONS:

The new system with quest/god/unlock subdungeons spawning alongside natural ones (at least in the early game) is wonderfull. The new/elite edition reward ones are a mixed bag, with some being awesome and some lacking substance.

Issue no. 1 - The Pactmaker subdungeon needs... anything. Just a signpost, or a talkable character, telling you what pact you will be stuck with would improve it significantly. Limited ammount of exploration would improve it, just about anything would improve it. Being stuck with it 3 times at random intervalls feels really wrong, and the 9 piety doesn't compensate. What's more, being stuck with a pact can and will screw a newbie over, and the less subdungeons you can only fiddle with after you've completed the run, the better. Heck, if it was just a broken altar which you could light a candle upon without actually being stuck with a pact, it would be better.

Issue no. 2 - At the time of playing, the Blob and the Djinn subdungeons were ussing an off tileset choice. Just an small art gripe. :)


GODS

Well, not much to say here, they up players power significantly, that's the point.

Issue no. 1 - The 2nd tier god subdungeons seem to spawn in 1st tier directional dungeons after you unlock the 1st tier god ment to spawn there and the relevent 2nd tier class. I'm not sure this was intended, and it makes it possible to round up all the gods rather easily. Also increeses the value of the Rogue unlock, since it means you can still get TT in the Southern Swamp (which ties into the doablitily of the first bank quest). I got TT and JJ this way, but Drac and Binlor had to be Tinker Scummed for further along their respective paths.

Issue no. 2 (and my appology) - I think Taurog might need his +5% on Unstoppably fury back. If you're not going for the spike, there really is very little incentive to stick with him further than whatever item you went in there for. This is from the perspective of the early game, but so far it's true. And the monk nerfs really worked, not even Taurog Monks are as unreal as they used to be, outside of scenario's which favour them. Either that, or the MP penalties should go completely, because most of the offending glyphs went thorough price increeses, and picking up all the gear is really punishing. I appologize.


GYLPHS

Not much to say, I've use all the early ones including IMAWAL, and the early game really likes WONNAFYT. GETTINDARE is off the charts and needs somethig done to it, IMAWAL maybe could cost 5 instead of 6 (UNless it allready does in which case it could cost 4 :D).


ITEMS

I really liked the one-shot subdungeon items, and since I've been mostly playing without locker slots, I haven't been forcing particular items.

The fake beard might be made to give +10 XP rather than +5, since losing an inventory slot is a bit harsh, and to reduce comparison with the cracked amulet.

Crystall Ball - I don't actually think the price for the effect isn't fair (it's a crazy ass effect), but the fact that it can be charged for CP ought to be noted somewhere, and the price LOOKS prohibitive as it is (I think) by far the largest such price in the game. Really torn on what to think.


Well, that's about it. I'd post and highlight all the Likes and Big Likes for the dev's to feel proud of their work (as they're really deserving) but it would eat up the entire page. If this is all too long, maybe someone could help with editing it? Most of the stuff is probably fixable easily, working as intended and all that, but I feel I've put effot into the playthrough and that some of this polishing could take it from near perfect closer to perfect. No expectations, no threats, no whining and all that ;)
Last edited by Lujo on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:32 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Cocise Early Game Feedback Writeup

Postby The Avatar on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:20 pm

Wow. This is awesome. I agree with it all.
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Re: Cocise Early Game Feedback Writeup

Postby Lujo on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:40 pm

The Avatar wrote:Wow. This is awesome. I agree with it all.


:oops: Ty. Did my best, because as we all know, threats and demands (EDIT: and vanity, let's not forget) is all I'm good for... (Snarkiness at conclusion jumpers, not Avatar, ofc.)

However, some of this might be just pro perspective or early game perspective. For example, the 2 earliest witch quests actually make use of the first directional dungeons, which is nice, but drives the question of why have her unlockable early only by Tinker Expeditions and so far in the hardest direction?)

EDIT: Added Issue no. 2.5 to the GAME FLOW section, dealing with the first bank quests, which has it's own kinks.

EDIT: And I forgot items!

Also - I think the whole Rogue unlock being more beneficial than the Berserker one could be resolved if their unlock monsters were swapped. The problem with wraiths is that their boss is really nasty early on, and the thing with gorgons is that their ability doesn't nearly hurt the Rogue (who's a spiker) as much as it should (but would hurt the Breserker because he's more of a regen fighter). I got a feeling I'm on to something here. Unlocking gorgons as fodder would be an incentive to go west in an off itself, while having the phys resist wraiths around would curb the power of the early Rogue and compensate for all the peripheral benefits of unlocking him. Or am I wrong?
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Re: Cocise Early Game Feedback Writeup

Postby Darvin on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:28 pm

Good feedback. I'm a little bit amused that this wall of text is Lujo's idea of "concise" :P
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Re: Cocise Early Game Feedback Writeup

Postby Lujo on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:32 pm

Darvin wrote:Good feedback. I'm a little bit amused that this wall of text is Lujo's idea of "concise" :P


I'm quita a bit annoyed at that very same thing. It was supposed to be concise, but now it's "cocise" (as per typo thread title :D).

Help w editing it? Anyone? So the dev's don't give up instead of reading the apparently decent feedback?
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Re: Cocise Early Game Feedback Writeup

Postby The Avatar on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:40 pm

I read all of it. Just think of it like a book page.
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Re: Cocise Early Game Feedback Writeup

Postby Lujo on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:46 pm

The Avatar wrote:I read all of it. Just think of it like a book page.


Yeah, but as far as i can tell, the dev's are so sick of me on principal that they skip stuff even if it might be worth it. Would be a fun experiment to edit all this stuff to be really concise and get a newbie to post it, just to see if it gets feedback :lol:

EDIT: INB4 I'm reminded that dev's read everything including my incessant spam: I know! Joking! Don't kill me!
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Re: Cocise Early Game Feedback Writeup

Postby The Avatar on Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:12 pm

Yeah. They read everything. As do I. I just post a heck of a lot more. I guess I just have a lot of ideas (most of which are probably bad, but this is my first beta).
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Re: Cocise Early Game Feedback Writeup

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:36 am

Edited the Bank lvl 2 Issue entry into Bazzar lvl 2 entry it was supposed to be. I also appologize and feel sorry for sompromising the writeup legitimacy by making that mistake. Now if there was a way to make it less of a:

Image

I'd be happier, but unfortunately, I still think if I made it shorter, it would just come off as curt or demanding. This way I have a bit of space to explain my reasoning, point out that I'm not necessarily in love with my possible solutions and all that.
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