The seasonal greetings

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Re: The seasonal greetings

Postby The Avatar on Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:32 am

Agreed. It all needs to be tweaked, but I guess the system could work.
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Re: The seasonal greetings

Postby Abraxas on Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:50 am

While I personally love the Wizard changes, I think the fact that the nature of the conversion mechanics eluded game vets for this long says something important about how the ability is exposed to the player.
Especially with the Wizard being a tier 1 class, it's easy to imagine that new players probably won't have even fully grasped the idea of conversion points by the time they unlock him, and even easier to imagine them getting pretty confused with the Wizard.
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Re: The seasonal greetings

Postby Lujo on Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:19 am

Good point, although it's probably a "you get this terrific idea about exploiting the ability / it blows up in your face / you decide the devs actually had sense / and then you decide it's still pretty good" expirience that awaits the newbies. So by learning what it CAN'T do you learn what it actually does. OR so I hope, as I actually like the changes quite a bit.

And as for Darvins explanation - I agree with what you're saying, but the boon has been hit even harder, and while I like the whole thing will probably need tweaking.
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Re: The seasonal greetings

Postby TigerKnee on Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:43 am

I'm surprised they actually made huge gameplay upheaval changes in an update.

I'll let people comment on Poison and Wizard, but on Transmuter, so you took away Strength potion effect stacking... but that was just about the only thing that's keep the Transmuter relevant in winning harder dungeons.

Though I'm not great at the game and I'm sure someone will break him in some other way and make me eat my hat or something.
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Re: The seasonal greetings

Postby Lujo on Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:53 am

TigerKnee wrote:I'm surprised they actually made huge gameplay upheaval changes in an update.


Well, apart from the Transmuter one some of these were a long time coming (and pretty justified in nature, maybe just not in scope). Plus, it's not like they won't get tested - heck, if we had one like this for every week where nothing major happened we could've tested a whole expansion worth of content ^^ And it's not like there aren't tweaks left to make, I've dug up quite a few in a single playthrough and thats if you count only the tame ones...
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Re: The seasonal greetings

Postby q 3 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:07 am

So it's actually the Elf and Orc wizards who got the big buff, since those two races get the most out of front-loaded conversion points. Elf Wizards benefit in particular since they can now get (even more) ridiculous MP recovery thanks to Mystera's Refreshment, and Orc Wizards benefit relative to the now-deprecated Human Wizard thanks to losing the attack penalty.

Although perhaps a more straightforward approach would be simply to have the Wizard claim some % of the CP of a glyph, say 50%, as soon as it enters the inventory. Harder to cheese and hopefully easier for new players to figure out. (Having a tier 1 class automatically gain CP, without the player doing anything she wasn't already doing, could also be a useful way of teaching about CP and conversion generally. "Hey, I just gained some points! And my stats improved! How cool! I want to do that with all my classes!")
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Re: The seasonal greetings

Postby q 3 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:33 am

A few more thoughts re: poison. Assassins are basically unable to take advantage of their attack bonus at low levels when using poison-regen tactics. The monster's poison will usually expire by the time you're ready for another attack. If nothing else changes, Assassins should probably be changed to 0 damage penalty and only +20% from poison.

One interesting thing about this change is that poison not expiring when you attack or cast a spell can take a lot of pressure off your various combos. Getting in one more hit or a BURNDAYRAZ or PISORF is now possible even if you don't have the means to inflict another hit of poison, whereas previously (especially with APHEELISK) you had to wait until you had enough MP for a full onslaught + poison. Of course, this is assuming you're able to maintain sufficient levels of poison so that you're doing more damage than the monster can regenerate.

Monks might be able to abuse the Venom Dagger at low levels again, since they hit more often. I'll leave testing that to those who are more adept at playing a Monk. ;) The dagger and the boon are now basically useless for Rogues (and those using Rogue-like tactics, pun not intended). Both items are severely biased in favor of tanks.

If we're not going to scrap the new poison system altogether, my suggested tweaks (for the moment) would be something like Assassins getting something like a +2 or x2 level bonus when casting APHEELSIK (which would be consistent with Warlords and Paladins being better with their own glyphs) and having the dagger and TT boon add more poison when you deal more damage (e.g. hit for 5, add 5 poison, hit for 25, add 25 poison; or whatever numbers are suitable).
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Re: The seasonal greetings

Postby AshleyTheNeko on Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:42 am

Any ETA on the Codex and new kingdom screen/map? I love what you guys are doing, but you way over-hyped those two, and I thought they'd be here a lot sooner.
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Re: The seasonal greetings

Postby Nurator on Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:14 am

Monks with Venom Daggers are pretty crappy... but I think its a bug. The dagger stops 5 points of regeneration on each attack. This is ridicolous against a lvl 7 or higher... even on lvl 2 thats just nothing^^ Maybe the intended effect was 5 points * your level like all the other ones?
Normally you dont get more attacks on higher levels until you have to regenerate, this is just ridicolously weak^^

Edit: Ok i take that back... it is something like a plain +5dmg per attack if you play with it right... but I would mostly prefer the Fine Sword. Maybe increase it to 8 poison, then it would be pretty awesome :) (especially with the monk)


To the assassin: He is really weak now... Maybe he got have some class ability that deals poison everytime he attacks? And if you dont attack that high enemies that you can manage to get two hits on it, the second one deals extra damage :)
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Re: The seasonal greetings

Postby Lujo on Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:46 pm

Ok, on the halfling/gnome wizard thing. Or spoon conversion thing. It's not an infinte loop, but it looks like quite a buff.

You get the warmonger like ammount of CP if you convert an 7 or 8 items, and you get to keep all your glyphs (and use them). You can litterally have your cake and eat it, and it's all jolly good fun.

Now, the net gain from all this is compounded (word?) if you can use cheap (or free) conversion fodder to mooch CP off your glyphs, so you get the same ammount of CP, for a smaller gold investment, and this saves more Crystall ball money, and I was allready getting prety solid results form Crystall Ball Wizards (they have an inordinate number of quests laying about, or so it seemed). So good in fact that just unlocking the Crystall Ball turned Wizards from "struggling" into "really, really good", and it also seemed to me that the early availablilty of such a strong item was there to jumpstart wizards exclusively.

Now, where this is going is - Even though you can't do an infinite loop, or crazy shennanigans, you can still grind a bunch of healing potions with a halfling with no exploration past the point where you've accumulated all your glyphs (with extra glyph). This means you can also get some number of Drac Piety on the spot (+20 for Blood Curse), or you can get a smaller bunch of GG piety OR if JJ rewards you with piety for conversions you can grind him. Drac gives out the most, though, but the other guys work with gnomes.

If Wizards "worked" before they got this buff, and I've done Two Unlikely Heroe's quests, One off-race Grimms Grotto quest (where I discvered Drac Halfling shennanigans), The Shifting Passages quest, Purist Rock Garden, all 3 Challenges, and was generally impressed with how they rolled with proper preps, so, if they "worked" before, then they just gained an out of nowhere front loaded CP surge that could actually be used to simply get a bunch of quick piety. You'd probably still be the old-tricky-to-use-but-still-not-that-bad wizard with no damage penalty, except you'd be a bunch of piety richer.

What could a halfling wizard get for 40 (80 CP on a glyph means 8 "free" healing potions, times 5 piety is 40 piety, i think) + 20 Piety with drac on lvl 1?

EDIT: Eh, cat made it incoherent, edited for clarity. Ought to whittle it down though...
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