Gorgon Rework Idea

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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby q 3 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:24 am

I don't get it. If cramped maps are such a burden, then the fact that the Gorgon is the only class that starts with ENDISWAL should be a huge advantage. In fact, I'm pretty sure it is a huge advantage. Combine that with poison strike and one of the only sources of non-resistable damage in the game and she packs quite a punch. If she were to get buffed at all, IMO it's her Death Gaze that needs a buff, but even that's mostly because it's overshadowed by her other advantages.

(Try giving her the venom dagger and possibly a level or two of Tikki Tooki's poison strike, and she might be a contender for top regen-based spellcaster...)

I'd actually say the Half-dragon is the weakest monster class. He's utterly dependent on knockback damage, which is very unreliable, particularly in vicious dungeons. Magical attack is even more unreliable, especially since he has no way to turn it off (everyone else can get a temporary magic attack from Cleansing - maybe the Half-dragon should get a temporary physical attack? ;) ). His other two class features become obsolete pretty quickly.
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby Lujo on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:38 am

q 3 wrote:I don't get it. If cramped maps are such a burden, then the fact that the Gorgon is the only class that starts with ENDISWAL should be a huge advantage.


It would seem so, but actually isn't. Because everybody else, when they kills something that's blocking a chokepoint, don't have to spend 6 mana just to move forward. When other people level up, then popcorn is something you click on and it goes away - with gorgon it something you have to click on, and then spend 6 mana to move out of the way.

Everybody else can't screw themselves for 6 tiles of blackspace because of a WONNAFYT misshap. She has to spend her exploration on killing stuff, but then she has to spend MORE exploration on moving it out of the way. She LOOKS like the best spellcasting regen fighter, but in fact isn't.

Also, I highly suspect one of the bases upon which she "works" is B2P - which works on anybody, and if anyone's arguing that she's fine and is using Crystall Ball on her likewise has a problematic argument. Plus, I'm not saying she can't be strong or played well or beat a vicious, I'm saying that the way she plays "different" is unfun, and that the fun aspects could probably be captured in a more fun way.

Or that we could get the gold on statue destruction and at least be a little less annyoed at creating our own roadblocks...
Last edited by Lujo on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby q 3 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:43 am

Gorgons should rarely ever have to deal with "chokepoints" in the first place, except for water/lava dungeons, since she can blast the surrounding walls without killing anything. For that whole initial phase where you're exploring without killing, you're free to spam glyphs, and ENDISWAL is one of the best glyphs to spam (unless you're holding out for a Binlor altar, but in that case you won't have to worry about chokepoints either).
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby Lujo on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:45 am

q 3 wrote:Gorgons should rarely ever have to deal with "chokepoints" in the first place, except for water/lava dungeons, since she can blast the surrounding walls without killing anything. For that whole initial phase where you're exploring without killing, you're free to spam glyphs, and ENDISWAL is one of the best glyphs to spam (unless you're holding out for a Binlor altar, but in that case you won't have to worry about chokepoints either).


So you're supposed to explore most of the map with weak attack poison-sporting regen fighter and then start fighting stuff? How does that make sense?

She's built to only really want blackspace - and she's burdened to not be able to reach the blackspace in any sensible fashion... I can explore - but I can't regen mana while I'm at it... With the way the current poison works, this makes an assasin spamming APHEELSICK and killing stuff that's in the way play exactly the same, but with far less hassle...

q 3 wrote:I'd actually say the Half-dragon is the weakest monster class. He's utterly dependent on knockback damage, which is very unreliable, particularly in vicious dungeons. Magical attack is even more unreliable, especially since he has no way to turn it off (everyone else can get a temporary magic attack from Cleansing - maybe the Half-dragon should get a temporary physical attack? ;) ). His other two class features become obsolete pretty quickly.


Eh, it looked that way to me too, and the magic damage thing is certanly right, but knockback is only unreliable if bosses spawn on the edges, far away from anything you can slam them into. Otherwise he has really good damage with a bear mace after a few conversions... Come to think of it, he often has more damage than a retaliating Gorgon, or so it seemed to me...
Last edited by Lujo on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby q 3 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:53 am

Not most of the map, just the middle third or so. I'm actually having a hard time thinking of how to explain this strategy, since I thought it was intuitive. Anytime I get ENDISWAL I'm going to spend a while strategically smashing up walls to maximize my ability to explore and also to maximize blackspace for later. Hit chokepoints first and then hit thick walls that contain black tiles you couldn't reach anyway (particularly dungeons with a double layer of walls around the edges, leave one hole every three tiles and don't explore the outer edge until you've exhausted every other tile). It helps if you know exactly which tiles to reveal and which to leave blank. The shadow that certain walls cast is really helpful, since you can leave the wall tiles unrevealed until you need them.

It's actually the same for every class if they get ENDISWAL, the Gorgon just does it better since she starts with the glyph. I do plenty of wall smashing with my Assassins, too.

It's very rare that you actually have a good candidate for a kill right away, anyway, so as long as you're exploring you should make efficient use of the tiles you're using up. Granted, since I'm nearly always playing Purist, I have to explore quite a bit more, since my range of candidates for killin' is narrower and I'm also looking to find an optimal deity before I start killing monsters or converting things.
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby Blovski on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:56 am

Gorgon held up as well as most on Naga City. I don't know how practical she is without Binlor? (the Binlor synergy is massive, though, especially on NC... and you get an extra 100cp into the bargain) Anyone tried it? - I mean, GG is out, Dracul and EM lose piety sources because of the petrification... Taurog's a big problem with the spellcasting, TT does not synergise with regen fighting but maybe the poison counteracts that. So... JJ or Mystera I guess?

Aww, I love the Half-Dragon, you can get some truly ridiculous knockback % going - on NC he's a monster. On Dragon Isles, not so much...

Anyway, I went into a NC run with her with very low expectations/unfond memories and she did just fine with a prepped Binlor despite that map's mobs being very suboptimal for her... wouldn't stick her in the same tier as the Rogue or Bloodmage but hardly as bad as I thought. I hadn't known the Death Gaze bypassed all resistances.

@Dislecksia - interesting, going to try her on some more maps and report back.
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby Lujo on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:59 am

@q3: Eh, you don't have to explain that, it's just something I thought of as only being necessary if I'm trying really hard with an unpriviledged class. I've done it here and there in the Gaan'Telet vids, when playing as Tinker. The game doesn't actually require it of anyone else, and if there was a class who's default gameplay was that, I'd say it'd have to give a lot more payoff...

And, err, as a resist character with built in poison, I'd say LEMISI ought to be good on her. For various reasons.
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby q 3 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:11 am

I guess I don't really see it as much different from a Rogue constantly looking for ways to boost max HP. You're compensating for a weakness, to be sure, but you're doing it in a way that is an effective strategy for nearly any class - and, in both cases, getting a huge payoff in terms of a class that has game-breaking abilities once their weakness has been covered.
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby Lujo on Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:50 am

q 3 wrote:I guess I don't really see it as much different from a Rogue constantly looking for ways to boost max HP. You're compensating for a weakness, to be sure, but you're doing it in a way that is an effective strategy for nearly any class - and, in both cases, getting a huge payoff in terms of a class that has game-breaking abilities once their weakness has been covered.


In theory, you're right, it's no different than shoring up a weakness through carefull play.

In practice - most ways in which the Rogue boosts his health are either fire and forget (Troll Heart and Alchemist Scroll both get converted, Vine Form sticks and Absolution has further benefits once you go Enlightment), or worth the investment - such as static max resists, and the payoff is very significant.

With the Gorgon I find that you can't really ever let go of the ENDISWALL, can't really use the endiswall while spiking something too well, and having a mana sink hog an inventory slot while you try to make up for the damage penalty just isn't worth it. What's the payoff? Double damage and un-unresistable swift hands once a monster reaches below a realy slow climbing threshold? Which it won't reach unless you use spells, and mana takes more blackspace to regenerate, so you need more blackspace overall than anyone else?

I think this whole thing got off on the wrong foot, and that's probably my fault.

There's two separate things here, at least:

1) Debatable power level of the Gorgon. Which I care less about than the other thing, but all sorts of things could be argued.
2) The user friendliness of a character who leaves statues upon kills, which can only be destroyed by ENDISWAL. No other character can leave you in a position where you have to drink a mana potion or two just because you killed something. This mechanic is killing the class for me - I'm sure I could do VICIOUS with her, I've done stranger things, but I'd be infintely more inclined to if this was solved in some other way. And I'm also sure there's other people who'd agree.
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Re: Gorgon Rework Idea

Postby Naoya on Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:50 am

Imo, Gorgon has an interesting concept; but it simply has too many flaws.

She's built as a natural regenfigther - poison, low dmg, resists, finisher.
The problem is that she simply has too many weaknesses that not only make up for her strong points, but more or less override them.

You don't get anything except a layer of stoneskin for destroying statues that block your way, which means she needs more blackspace than other classes to not block herself off. Which doesn't go well with her being a regenfighter and all.
So, for regenfighting, you need tiles, and for cleaning up, you need even more tiles.

The second Point: She relies too much on deathgaze. Its a good thing deathgaze isn't easy stackable, but her fixation on it means that she lacks ways to take on enemys that counter her natural abilities, like magic dmg monsters, or worse, undead. So deathgaze, which is already balanced by low dmg, is eh...
extremely balanced as she simply won't get them low enough for it to take effect. Which means she kind of won't take them down at all.

A caster that meets an high resist enemy either goes pseudomelee or somehow reduces magic resists. A melee fighter does essentially the same.
The point is, most classes can adjust their playstyle to difficulties and work around there weaknesses if required, although with some effort.
Gorgon can't really do these things, as he/she/it can't really utilize most deitis effectively nor can she do something different/pick another race. She HAS to rely on wittling down her enemys to finish them of with deathgaze. She probably can be played like a caster, but then again, who, besides the berserker, can't ?

Now, I'm not saying having a specific playstyle would be a bad thing; its just that it doesn't work *well* enough, and she can't really do much else.

YaY for easier breakable statues. It would be probably be interesting to see if the statues could be used as resources - getting something for breaking them or stuff like that. Has Anyone thoughts about this ?



Trivia: You can petrify Golems. GOLEMS. Things that are made out of freakin' rocks! I always found this kind of weird... Death Gaze should be 100% against them, always! =P
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