Concise Lategame Writeup

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Concise Lategame Writeup

Postby Lujo on Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:10 am

LATE GAME:

Challenges here - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2466 (Dev's: It's realy short, concise and important!)

Midgame here - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2434

Early game here - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2421


Late game involved finishing up the main quest by doing the penultimate directional quests, HARD Gaan'Telet purist, mopping up challenges (separate writeup), doing all vicious and unlocking monster classes. I also did a vampire run in VICIOUS Gaan'Telet for the money.


Gameflow


There were no major gameflow gripes, except the weird unlock prerequisites for the Berserker Gold and the Paladin Silver challenges. The paladin silver was especially jarring because it requires a Berserker run in the Labyrinth which was the most difficult penultimate directional quest.

Issue no1 - The challenge unlock bussiness.

Issue no2 - The lack of quests in Slime Pits and Cursed Oasis really showed it's downside when PQI fired up.

Issue no3 - Horatio not dropping a trophy in HARD Gaan'Telet makes it a bad choice for a flaming dungeon run, and it has happened.

Issue no4 - Tools for dealing with cramped dungeons other than Binlor are significantly less efficent. This creates a sense that prepping Binlor is mandatory in the more difficult ones (and it probably is). I think adding the goblin bombs to the alchemist prep roster, or as an "underground arms warehouse" prep simmilar to the rogue subdungeon but with a goblin handing them out for gold might do the trick.

Issue no5 - The HARD Halls of Steel are too easy, yet Namtar's Lair is the hardest VICIOUS. With the East being so favourable right now (easiest dungeons, witch, quests in the Berserker camp, easy VHoS) it can create frustration to anyone trying to do east first. Causes a big letdown once you discover how easy the other VICIOUS dungeons are compared to Namtars Lair. This couples with the anomalus existance of VHoS to create a bad and unsatisfying impression (or potential thereof) concerning the east.

Issue no6 - The power of Crystal Ball, coupled with all the quests I did with the pre-buff wizard, led me to develop a strong reliance on the combo, which has certanly influenced my gameplay. I feel that it deserves a heavy nerf, but if it does get one, the difficulty assesment for some parts of the game might change. It affected too many runs to count. Same goes for B2P. However, since most runs utilizing those two were laughably easy in retrospect, I don't feel that anything will turn impossible, but rather get to where it was supposed to be, except posibly in the case of Namtar's Lair. And maybe Labyrinth in the sense that the nose ring trophy might be a bit more difficult to grab.


DUNGEONS:



Issue no.1 The mentioned lack of quests and general reasons to go into Cursed Oasis and Namtar's Lair has led to a distinct lack of moaning about their difficulty, so they remain pretty much untested except by a select bunch of lunatics (me included) who aren't the best judges of what's reasonable and what's not. Namtar's Lair is very much more difficult than the rest of VICIOUS and Cursed Oasis could've at least lost the Animated Armors in favour of just about anything else by now and been made more acessible.

Issue no.2 CO doesn't spawn a regular subdungeon at all. This is certanly factoring into the difficulty people have been experiencing with it.


PENULTIMATES

I did all penultimate directional quests by purpusefully going for the relevant trophy to see if someone who's missing it would be able to do it with any class required for the VICIOUS unlock quest. It was doable every time, except I forgot to do it with the Bloodmage.

Issue no1 - The Berserker noticably struggles with the Labyrinth. It's doable, but the effort required is siginficantly larger than any other class/dungeon combo.

Issue no2 - Bosses which you absolutely have to PISSORF/Knockback kill (DP guys), can spawn in very awkward positions. This creates a huge hazard unless there is a WHEYTWUT handy, and if there is there is no hazard at all. Seeing about limiting thier spawn radius to not include the last row would probably be nice.

VICIOUS

All have been done without vicious rewards or the Fabulous Treasure on the assumption that any dungeon could be the first one attempted.

Dragon Isles Wizard (Fireballed the matron to death), Berserker (is favoured by the map), Assassin (Struggled but managed). Impression - it's a pleasant expirience compared to how it used to be, and the lack of AA's really made it enjoyable.

Naga City Wizard (PISSORFF spam for the most part), Sorceror (Fireball Spam with witchalok, fire heart and weakenings), Bloodmage (fireball spam with mysterea mono, weakenings, was very straightforward). Impression - it's nice and challenging, but I've technicaly cheezed through since Crystal Ball and B2P are de facto overpowered.

VHoS Wizard (PISSORFF spam with no B2P, weird boss positions, was difficult), Bloodmage (same, except had favourable boss positions and B2P so it was really easy), Transmuter (very unfavourable run with 0 cheeze, won because of vine form reducing Indomitable damage to 0 thus preventing corrosion which would've killed me othewise). Impressions - it's not hard as long as the Indomitable doesn't spawn on the edges. Binlor prep was pretty mandatory to avoid scumming.

Namtars Lair Rogue (Triling, binlor, 3 tries, Zombie Gold), Bloodmage (binlor, first try, Zombie Gold), Tinker (first try, Binlor, was tough). It's significantly harder than other places, and very unpleasant as I don't think it's really doable without Binlor. It needs toning down and it feels like a remnant of a time where the power curve was different. The first 2 wins wouldn't've been possible without Zombie Money at all, and that subdungeon is well above the curve.

Demonic Library Only one run, Wizard. Was so easy to get a generic win here that I didn't feel like doing any more runs. Fireball spam the non resistant guys, PISSORF the resistant ones into each other, nuke Avatar untill the map fills up then WHEYTWUT him to the entrance. It's all doable with a piercing wand to lower his resists. It looked fun, is probably challenging but doable.

Gaan'Telet is too difficult ATM, I think. I did it with a vampire who plays a whole different game compared to the other guys, and q3 said it's doable with a rogue. If it's supposed to be at leats attemptable, it needs to be a tad less insane.


NERF BAIT:


Crystal Ball is simply too good. I was wrong, it doesn't need a buff. It's way too spamable, guarantees wins anywhere where there is enough gold through boss kill drops, makes killing magic resistant bosses with PISSORFF easier than killing regular bosses with BURNDAYRAZ, makes Binlor even more of an auto-prep even on non-cramped maps. It also beats every other locker prep but the trisword and possible the Fabulous Terasure not worth it. The biggest issue with it is that it affects player development - there is no real reason to outgrow it, it's very, very easy to develop a reliance on it, and going cold turkey creates a sharp drop in what you can and can't do. I also can't assess the actual power of other spellcasting features because I can't justify not prepping it on just about anything. And it also obsoletes the shops to a large degree because very few things that you can buy can compare to the 5 gold per mana refill. This is coming from me, the guy who worshiped TT for the buyouts.

BLOODTOPOWA is also too good in almost every imaginable situation. There were too many wins which depended solely on it (+/- CB) since I've unlocked it, it pushes bloodmage off the scale (visible effort difference compared to other classes on same maps), and turns anyone into a mana spiker. It deffinitely needs a nerf, most likely losing the extra mana point it regenerates. I've also thought about what it would be like to have the fast regen monsters also regenerate when you use it, but am not sure what to think.

Important: Both of these are belated feedback on the "Massive spellcaster buff" update of long ago. I remember the dev's inquring about B2P recently, and my answer, after a lot of testing is "Deffinitely nerf". As for the Crystal Ball - "Deffinitely nerf", except I'm not sure what to advise. Upping the cost to 10 or 15 per pop would be reasonable, but it would further kill the shops as a feature for CB useres. On the plus side, that would reduce the overreliance on CP gnomes which are so synergistic with the whole spellcasting cheeze singularity, as it would deny them some conversion fodder needed for the MP + CB + B2P + Flames + Refreshment spike.

Zombie Money Subdungeon wins games on its own. It's too good even if you're not aware of the fact that there is 1/4 of the level worth of LEMISI or B2P fodder to the side of the main area.

Cha'Dylan Subdungeon likewise wins runs on it's own. If you invest a bunch of resources at lvl 3-4 you can get lvl 6-7 with most of your map intact, get a free glyph and a bunch of exploration.

Goblin + 4 potions subdungeon is just very much too good as well.


IN NEED OF BUFFS:


Fire Heart I like the concept, but it needs two things to really become a cog and not warrant vetoing. A higher charge acquisition rate, say 10% per glyph use. Filling it up twice during a non-potions spike boss fight is NOT easy. And it needs overheal capabilites.

Transmuter I like the LEMISI, but the CP acquisition rate could use an increase, and the payoff needs a rework. It's simmilar to the fire heart in that it's very difficult to pop it at the later stages of the run, which sort of makes the whole character lose all his features at the most important time. Except if you use the CB + B2P + PISSORF spike, but that works for anyone at all and needs nerfs.

Gorgon At the very least needs gold on statue creation in the manner of IMAWAL. I've suggested a rework which would make her into a straight up IMAWAL character with lvling and gold benefits to make more use out of poison and conversion fodder, which looks really nice. It's in a separate thread.

Crusader The first ability is a popcorn munching spiker ability, and the other two scream "Build me for resists!". I would really, REALLY love to have his first ability simply award him 1% res both on kill or be identical to the body pact. The way he is is really confusing, and would be unintuitive if there was anything to figure out.

Pactmakers CP pact Has so much potential but costs too much piety.

Burning Should really, really not cause plant spawning bosses to spawn plants. It's the most fiddly and unintuitive side effect now that poison has been made infinitely more user friendly.


RACES AND CLASSES:


Gnomes - have been pushed overboard by too many things to count. There's very little reason to pick them early in the kingdom development, but once you start doing vicious with a bunch of unlocks, there's very little reason to pick anything else. Darvin's been aware of this for a while now, and I seem to have turned into Darvin lately. It's not them, really, it's the other stuff, except that the viability of potion spikes has sharply increased in general.

Other guys Don't convert for cheap mana potions. It's their only, but fatal, flaw. Trilings are still trilings, allthough PISSORFF gnomes are probably even better Trisword wielders. I've used them all here and there in the earlier stages, but the late game has been pretty much only gnomes and halflings.

Wizard, Sorcerer, Bloodmage, Fighter, Warlord and Paladin - are boosted too much by the current B2P and CB. Not their fault, they seem fine otherwise. Bloodmage is the biggest offender here.

Priests, Transmuters, Crusaders, Gorgons - need buffs/tactical reworks, as has been noted. The latter 3 certanly, and the priest is my least used class since I can't justify picking him up almost anywhere over anybody else.

Warlords - should probably have his overall damage bonus reduced to total 50%. The power difference between the CYDSTEP he is using and the one everyone else is using might warrant something like the price reduction for everyone else to 8.


GODS


Binlor is still an autoprep for cramped maps, mostly for the lack of options. Adding the 3rd layer to the alchemist building that would add an explored subdungeon with a Goblin selling no/low CP bombs would likely fix this. We allready have a god who can do this for us and hand over a few usefull buffs along with a load of piety, so that suggestion being too powerfull is a very moot point. I'm pesonaly sick and tired of feeling the need to use him everywhere.

EM punishing Lifesteal has screwed me over a bunch of times. I don't know why this is necessary, seeing how she allows for B2P, and this just screws you over at random if you were using Drac as a piety farm. Since vampires cant worship anymore, there probably is no reason at all to keep punishing it...

Pactmaker Could really use a change which would allow you to pick up a pact and consensus in any order. The only purpose of things being the way they are seem to be to screw me over randomly when I forget about that particular bit of nonsense. Also, the CP pact, it costs too much piety per pop.

Mysterea - Worked fine as a swiss army utility package for spellcasters. The only thing that could be made more useable (or useable at all) is Mystic Balance. At the very least it's really overpriced ATM.

Dracul - Is actually a decent piety farm. I have never used fewer bloodswells in my career, but am picking him up regularly. Bloodshield not taking up an inventory slot is also something I'm wondering about - could it be made to work otherwise? A small phylactery like item maybe?

TT - seems to be where he's supposed to be. The poison is much nicer than it used to be as it doesn't fall off easily. Takes 3 helpings to become really usefull, but can also be more easily picked up to help farm piety. Maybe some more tweaking, I'll experiment more as soon as the CB and B2P bussiness is resolved.


GLYPHS

PISSORF Would benefit immensly from having a the ammount of damage displayed when you mouse over like Burndayraz does. Even if it's two numbers - X for hitting a wall, Y for hitting a monster.

APHEELSICK I'm loving the carefree nature of the new poison system, and am using it on a regular basis as an utility glyph.

GETINDARE Works fine.

WHEYTWUT Probably costs too much.

IMAWAL I've been runing a lot of wizards lately, and I've been using it a lot. The new XP curve really makes it benefical to use, the gold drops are also ocassionally picked up during exploration, and the curse wipe is nice as well. It could easily cost 5 mana for everybody, as far as I'm concerned.


NEW CONTENT FEEDBACK



Wizard He's great, and once CB and B2P are nerfed he'll be just right. I don't think he'll need any nerfs, as the buffs just put him on equal grounds with the rest of the guys and will certanly help his early game. Great job, guys.

Poison It might need one more round of tweaks at some point, but the system is infinitely more relaxing because I don't have to worry about sequencing, killing stuff in chokepoints, setting off burning. As a bonus newbies can actually notice how burning increases the number of tiles, and how the regen boosting stuff works. Great job!

New fireball retaliation Is also very nice, allthough it might've messed up places where retalite fireball was ment to read as "DO NOT FIREBALL THIS". In other words, you can now fireball the matron to death. I hope this sticks, but if you need dedicated fireballproof bosses, you might introduce "On retaliation only" abilities to those guys you want to be fireproof.

Mage Fist I've been trying it out during the money/completion easy runs. The biggest nonsensical problem is that it's competing with CB and B2P at the moment, and nothing can win that contest. Once those two are out of the picture it'll look a lot better. The big issue with it is that it causes fireballing to cost both health and mana. If you pick it up on dedicated spellcasters, it won't work because they cant really regen health without aying an opportunity cost. If you pick it up on healthmonsters or resist stackers - you cant regen mana. Elven priests and Monks look like good candidates, and healthmonsters DING! machines like Fighters and possibly transmuters, as well as the occasional sorcerer can use it, especially if coupled with other stuff that upps fireball damage. Drac worshiping Dwarves, or some kind of halfling spellcasters could also be good with it if they can find a way to regen their mana...

Naga Cauldron Doesn't really work on the grounds of Debuffs being difficult to acquire and keep on. I can't really think of the intended/optimal ammount of debuffs that this would work with, and then I can't think of situations where I'd prep it rather than something else. It'd probably work for potion jesuses like thieves and bloodmages, but ultimately, I'd prefer it as a shop item. If it could be made to work by adding charges of some sort upon REMOVING debuffs somehow while avoiding HALPMEH and IMAWAL + plants nonsese, then it would probably be cool. I'd deffinitely pick it up for an appropriate cost if I find it in a shop and I've been messed up during the run.


Ok, that's it for now, lots of time and effort has went into all this and I hope it gets read and makes an impact. Also discussed! I'll contionue testing stuff out on this profile, and will certanly make a "Concise post-late game" writeup of the further findings over the course of the next few updates - a bunch of rather necessary tweaks should be incoming, and stuff will need reexamination, but the game has never worked better and I'm hopefull that the dev's will honor our collective efforts to smooth all the kinks out before it ships.

Discuss away, and stay tuned for updates to the writeup as I discover what I've overlooked/forgot!
Last edited by Lujo on Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Concise Lategame Writeup

Postby gjaustin on Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:51 pm

I'll need to sit down and reread this carefully to discuss all your various points, but the only one I really wanted to object to was Issue No 4.

I find Bear Mace to be more than adequate to deal with Labyrinth and Shifting Passages. It doesn't completely break the maze like Binlor, but if anything that means that Binlor is too good in those dungeons! You're supposed to have to worry about getting stuck and what that means.
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Re: Concise Lategame Writeup

Postby Lujo on Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:02 pm

gjaustin wrote:I'll need to sit down and reread this carefully to discuss all your various points, but the only one I really wanted to object to was Issue No 4.

I find Bear Mace to be more than adequate to deal with Labyrinth and Shifting Passages. It doesn't completely break the maze like Binlor, but if anything that means that Binlor is too good in those dungeons! You're supposed to have to worry about getting stuck and what that means.


Shifting passages wasn't too much of a problem, as it doesn't start with corridors. I did however beat it 4 times by almost fully exploring it while I level (using B2P among other things), and then fireball killing both bosses with Crystall Ball, piety spikes and potions. With the old wizard mind you.

Binlor might be too good still, that IS the truth. The problem is that Pissorff and the Mace can still leave you stuck in tight corridors where the only thing you can push a monster into is another monster. Otherwise, I'm only complaining because prepping Binlor is such an fool proof improvement over the other options. Of running into ENDISWAL makes the issue non-existant, but then it's even more annoying as you have to scum for it - or prep Binlor -.-'

*And WHEYTWUT has the nasty tendency to start costing you potions or screw you up entirely if whatever is blocking you has magic resist and the RNG goes patches on you.

And, err, I'm sorry about the lengs, I wanted to be thorogh, and this IS the capstone of a project that took a long time, a lot of effort and all that. Thanks for opening the discussion! :)
Last edited by Lujo on Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Concise Lategame Writeup

Postby q 3 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:26 pm

I suppose I'll need to do a quick tour of the vicious dungeons when I have time, but I recall Namtar's being the easiest or second easiest for me (after Dragon Isles). Though that could be due to the fact that whenever I get bored my tendency is to take a Rogue and go smack him around effortlessly. ;)
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Re: Concise Lategame Writeup

Postby Lujo on Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:36 pm

q 3 wrote:I suppose I'll need to do a quick tour of the vicious dungeons when I have time, but I recall Namtar's being the easiest or second easiest for me (after Dragon Isles). Though that could be due to the fact that whenever I get bored my tendency is to take a Rogue and go smack him around effortlessly. ;)


It's not the difficulty in and off itself, its several things at once. An "effortless" win anywhere else (vicious) takes about half as much time. And an effortless win here means bulldozing most of the walls which takes time, and the time you invest is not invested in solving the map so much as removing the map. And if you don't do it and try to play it the way god intended (without cherry picking targets due to fully explored map, meaningless blink on all the blinkers, no lifedrain on wraiths, all the magic resist and all the powerups picked up due to no walls), it becomes A LOT more difficult than any other vicious. Once you line them up for a tour, it really becomes obvious how the other's have come down in difficulty while this one simply didn't...

And saying it's ok because of Rogues or Binlor isn't saying anyhting - very few places don't just keel over when you walk in with a Rogue and/or remove most of the walls snagging a bunch of resists and a pissorff in the process...

And as far as Labyrinth is concerned this only applies to a select few classes and if you're fishing for the Nose Ring, while the Shifting Passages are in fact doable without Binlor. Namtar's Lair may be doable without Binlor, but in that case its off the charts compared to other VICIOUS dungeons, and frankly, the game...

(Sorry about frothing at the mouth over this, but nothing, and I mean nothing has come close to annoying me so much. The ridiculous fighters gold didn't, and Naga City only managed to work me up a little bit because it was crashing like mad and I was having money issues. This would piss me off on my birthday when god handed me a new bmw and I found out they named me president of the galaxy at the same time as the devs announcing they'd stick my rl name on an item. But I've said all there is on it, sorry about being grouchy, there's other stuff in that writeup to check out)
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Re: Concise Lategame Writeup

Postby Darvin on Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:44 pm

It deffinitely needs a nerf, most likely losing the extra mana point it regenerates

While I agree it needs a nerf, reducing it from +4 to +3 mana per use is probably a bit too much (plus I like that it can be used in a pinch even when exploration is exhausted). Not sure what the right solution is here.

On the other hand, I really do want to see LEMMISI get +1 health on top of its existing properties.


As for the Crystal Ball - "Deffinitely nerf", except I'm not sure what to advise. Upping the cost to 10 or 15 per pop would be reasonable, but it would further kill the shops as a feature for CB useres

It'd also kill the CB as something purchased through shops. At 15 gold + 15 to activate, that's pretty much all your gold right there. May as well just buy a schadenfreude potion instead at that point.

I'd be inclined to reduce or remove the gold cost and introduce a different limitation. How about this: every time you use the crystal ball, your CP threshold is permanently increased. Sufficiently evil?


Zombie Money Subdungeon wins games on its own. It's too good even if you're not aware of the fact that there is 1/4 of the level worth of LEMISI or B2P fodder to the side of the main area.

Cha'Dylan Subdungeon likewise wins runs on it's own. If you invest a bunch of resources at lvl 3-4 you can get lvl 6-7 with most of your map intact, get a free glyph and a bunch of exploration.

Agreed; these subdungeons are just wicked compared to what else is out there, though with Cha'Dylan you need to find him at the right time to get maximum leverage out of it. I love zombie money; it looks cool and it's awesome, but it's blatantly broken.


It's the most fiddly and unintuitive side effect now that poison has been made infinitely more user friendly.

I don't see how new poison is more user-friendly than the old. It's a lot of math before I use the glyph to figure out how much mana it's going to take to maintain poison now, whereas before it was fire-and-forget.


Gnomes - have been pushed overboard by too many things to count. There's very little reason to pick them early in the kingdom development, but once you start doing vicious with a bunch of unlocks, there's very little reason to pick anything else. Darvin's been aware of this for a while now, and I seem to have turned into Darvin lately. It's not them, really, it's the other stuff, except that the viability of potion spikes has sharply increased in general.

The game has always wavered between favoring elves and favoring gnomes for spellcasting purposes. In the days of the quadruple schadenfreude, it was all elves. Today the balance is actually not too far off (since elves can hammer the crystal ball for some pretty big restores) but I'd agree it generally favors the gnomes of the two.

I will agree that gnomes definitely need to combo with other items to be effective, but I doubt humans, elves, and orcs will ever be topped for a low-unlock kingdom. Your primary tactics when nothing else is available are regen-fighting and level-up catapulting, and you just aren't going to beat attack damage or max mana for those purposes.


Warlords - should probably have his overall damage bonus reduced to total 50%. The power difference between the CYDSTEP he is using and the one everyone else is using might warrant something like the price reduction for everyone else to 8.

I'd agree that we should have some reconciliation between Warlord CYDSTEPP and everyone-else CYDSTEPP. Personally, my favourite suggestion is to allow CYDSTEPP to be cast so long as you have a minimum amount of health (not necessarily full). This should be an absolute number rather than %-based number to prevent Dracul Rogue shennanigans. I'm thinking 5 HP/level minimum to activate CYDSTEPP.


Binlor is still an autoprep for cramped maps, mostly for the lack of options.

I'd agree that Binlor's only issue is his near monopoly on dungeon demolitions. If you're sticking with him for the long-term, stone heart is a bit wall intensive now. I really think it should go back to affecting un-revealed monsters now that revealing enough walls to trigger this boon is sufficiently taxing on a Binlor follower. I'd also love to see something small granted with stone soup (heck, maybe just give the glyph the normal 100 CP. You did pay for it after all). However, I agree that in his current state he just can't be buffed due to his unique niche.


EM punishing Lifesteal has screwed me over a bunch of times. I don't know why this is necessary, seeing how she allows for B2P, and this just screws you over at random if you were using Drac as a piety farm. Since vampires cant worship anymore, there probably is no reason at all to keep punishing it...

Considering Drac->EM isn't even a particularly strong path (EM->Drac is the way to do it) I'd agree that this is overkill. She already has a dissonance with sanguine since it competes with plantation and petrification. I see no reason for an actual piety penalty.


Mysterea - Worked fine as a swiss army utility package for spellcasters. The only thing that could be made more useable (or useable at all) is Mystic Balance. At the very least it's really overpriced ATM.

A great suggestion that was discussed earlier was to drop the balance point to 4-MP and then exempt BURNDAYRAZ. Part of the problem is that very few of the game's glyphs actually benefit from this boon, but there are a lot of them at 5 MP that would gain half-benefit from this. BURNDAYRAZ would be a problem at 4-MP so it would have to be exempt, and that would hurt the Berserker, but everyone else would benefit enormously.


Dracul - Is actually a decent piety farm. I have never used fewer bloodswells in my career, but am picking him up regularly. Bloodshield not taking up an inventory slot is also something I'm wondering about - could it be made to work otherwise? A small phylactery like item maybe?

Eh, inventory limitations is more GG and Taurog's thing. Maybe it should just take max health? Or perhaps (evil grin) it should be buffed back to its old 20% numbers and then reduce your max resists at the same time. This would kill it for resist-stackers without actually smacking it with the nerf stick.

If Drac is going to take a nerf, I'd like to see his bonus base attack improved a bit so he's a little more appealing to low-level characters.


APHEELSICK I'm loving the carefree nature of the new poison system, and am using it on a regular basis as an utility glyph.

I'm of a different mind; it works under these new numbers, but I find it's much less clean than the old APHEELSIK. It also still needs help for 1st and 2nd level characters.


WHEYTWUT Probably costs too much.

Been saying this for a long time. It's always been overpriced at 8-MP and only really gets used if you have nothing better to spend mana on (which admittedly does come up a lot). If you can hit the 14-MP mark then the BURNDAYRAZ/WEYTWUT combo opens up, which is pretty much the only relevant 14-MP combo and vastly inferior to the BURN/BURN/GETINDARE combo at the 15-MP threshold.

At very least, make slowed players prioritize over slowed monsters so this glyph is actually useful to platemail/RBS users.
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Re: Concise Lategame Writeup

Postby FDru on Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:10 pm

If Crystal Ball's gold cost scaled to the mana return would that be a buff or a nerf? heh

I would really like to be able to use it to gain a mana or two at a low cost, but that would sufficiently nerf its spike potential if it costed like 1 gold per mana (perhaps with a cap of 15 or something).
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Re: Concise Lategame Writeup

Postby Lujo on Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:32 pm

Many good things said here - what to do exactly I don't know, but the current CB and B2P are too good and disruptive. The new poison has me calculating stuff that feels like should be calculated and not stuff that is just a result of clunkyness, which is a attention dedication twist which I like. I wont barge in on the discussion yet, seeing how the guys managed to hit the one sore spot in the whole damned textwall I could've gone berserk on, so I'll just say I added one more thing to the list:

CO doesn't spawn a subdungeon, which is a big, big deal. On how I found that out, there's a screenshot I'm really proud of in the playthrough notes :)
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Re: Concise Lategame Writeup

Postby The Avatar on Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:23 pm

Even vicious gives you a subdungeon!

I like the idea of scaling mana recovered to cost, probably one for one and making LEMISI give an extra hp per level.

I think NL needs a makeover. Since it's cramped, Binlor is great. Since it is almost all high damage low hp forms, rogues are cheap. I think more variety and more interesting layout.
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Re: Concise Lategame Writeup

Postby Darvin on Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:41 pm

I like the idea of scaling mana recovered to cost, probably one for one and making LEMISI give an extra hp per level.

One-for-one would only amplify the current problem of the crystal ball consuming all your cash. I really feel we need to reduce or even eliminate its gold cost and get a different penalty put in place.

With the exception of the Trisword, which is just plain nuts, gold-on-activation items tend to have a pretty big problem in this respect and I think they should move away to something else.
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