Extra pixels

All things Desktop Dungeons

Re: Extra pixels

Postby Lujo on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:24 pm

User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2841
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Extra pixels

Postby Blovski on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:15 pm

Having initially been pretty down on the new poison changes, now I've fiddled around with it I think it's waay better than the old system. Less fiddling, you can stick poison on a few targets at once, the assassin is a stronger physical and weaker magical option, which is great, and Venom Dagger might be tolerable now.

TT poison really needs to be a bit stronger on the first hit, even if it's just a few piety more (2/level for 20/25 or so), since TT users can't really get the repeat hits in like other characters.
Blovski
 
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:21 pm

Re: Extra pixels

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:39 pm

Having initially been pretty down on the new poison changes, now I've fiddled around with it I think it's waay better than the old system.

While I've found APHEELSIK is workable, it's a far cry from its former self. It's very backloaded, growing relatively stronger as you level up. At very high high levels it's definitely improved over its old self, but for low-level characters it's significantly weaker, and that's where poison gets the bulk of its value. It is more convenient in terms of your timing options with fireballs, but those were easily worked around. I will agree that the change helped the Assassin capitalize on his attack bonus, but it really hurts his opener at level 1/2 so I can't see this as a net benefit for the class.

At very minimum, APHEELSIK still needs to be buffed for very low-level characters. It works fine when the player:monster level ratio is within a 1.5 discrepancy, but it rapidly becomes useless as the level discrepancy increases. This makes poison extremely weak for 1st and 2nd level characters, and a poor performing for level 3-4 characters. Even as little as adding a +20 stack front-loading boost would be huge.


Also, now that poison actually has a numerical value rather than an all-or-nothing effect its interaction with magic resistance should be updated accordingly. Instead of a 50% chance to affect golems, it should apply 50% as many stacks. This would be consistent with the way that PISORF and BURNDAYRAZ work with resistances.


Venom Dagger might be tolerable now. TT poison really needs to be a bit stronger on the first hit, even if it's just a few piety more (2/level for 20/25 or so), since TT users can't really get the repeat hits in like other characters.

The current state of TT poison and the venom dagger is that they pretty much only work for Monks. Heavy resist stackers can get a bit of value out of them, but Monks are the only ones that will perform well. Their numbers are just too low for everyone else, since you need to hit 3 or 4 times to build up any appreciable amount of poison.

I'm seeing strong parallels between the current incarnation of poison and our historical issues with life-steal. Blood Hunger has a max-resist penalty tacked on to deal with its problems, and I think TT's poison boon will need a similar effect. The boon and dagger probably should be moved to 3 stacks per level per hit, but that would cause Monk troubles if it were done without a counter-balance.


Finally, to reiterate some things in the hope they don't get lost:

Transmuter needs a buff since he lost one of his primary tactics (strength stacking). It's understandable why it was taken away, but he needs something to compensate.

Mystic Balance was effectively nerfed by the APHEELSIK change, since the glyph now costs 5 MP and no longer benefits from this boon. Formerly there were three glyphs that gained full effect from this boon and two that gained half-effect. It was already kinda weak to begin with, but now that its utility has been drastically cut back by this change it definitely needs help.
User avatar
Darvin
 
Posts: 3148
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:44 am

Re: Extra pixels

Postby Blovski on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:34 pm

Darvin wrote:
Having initially been pretty down on the new poison changes, now I've fiddled around with it I think it's waay better than the old system.

While I've found APHEELSIK is workable, it's a far cry from its former self. It's very backloaded, growing relatively stronger as you level up. At very high high levels it's definitely improved over its old self, but for low-level characters it's significantly weaker, and that's where poison gets the bulk of its value. It is more convenient in terms of your timing options with fireballs, but those were easily worked around. I will agree that the change helped the Assassin capitalize on his attack bonus, but it really hurts his opener at level 1/2 so I can't see this as a net benefit for the class.

At very minimum, APHEELSIK still needs to be buffed for very low-level characters. It works fine when the player:monster level ratio is within a 1.5 discrepancy, but it rapidly becomes useless as the level discrepancy increases. This makes poison extremely weak for 1st and 2nd level characters, and a poor performing for level 3-4 characters. Even as little as adding a +20 stack front-loading boost would be huge.


Also, now that poison actually has a numerical value rather than an all-or-nothing effect its interaction with magic resistance should be updated accordingly. Instead of a 50% chance to affect golems, it should apply 50% as many stacks. This would be consistent with the way that PISORF and BURNDAYRAZ work with resistances.


Venom Dagger might be tolerable now. TT poison really needs to be a bit stronger on the first hit, even if it's just a few piety more (2/level for 20/25 or so), since TT users can't really get the repeat hits in like other characters.

The current state of TT poison and the venom dagger is that they pretty much only work for Monks. Heavy resist stackers can get a bit of value out of them, but Monks are the only ones that will perform well. Their numbers are just too low for everyone else, since you need to hit 3 or 4 times to build up any appreciable amount of poison.

I'm seeing strong parallels between the current incarnation of poison and our historical issues with life-steal. Blood Hunger has a max-resist penalty tacked on to deal with its problems, and I think TT's poison boon will need a similar effect. The boon and dagger probably should be moved to 3 stacks per level per hit, but that would cause Monk troubles if it were done without a counter-balance.


Finally, to reiterate some things in the hope they don't get lost:

Transmuter needs a buff since he lost one of his primary tactics (strength stacking). It's understandable why it was taken away, but he needs something to compensate.

Mystic Balance was effectively nerfed by the APHEELSIK change, since the glyph now costs 5 MP and no longer benefits from this boon. Formerly there were three glyphs that gained full effect from this boon and two that gained half-effect. It was already kinda weak to begin with, but now that its utility has been drastically cut back by this change it definitely needs help.


Assassin changes - I agree the early game's a bit weaker but also plays much better. Was an absolutely top-tier class before the changes, maybe THE strongest at one point (i.e. when mage plate was ridiculous good), is still very strong. Managed to clear Dragon Isles as a TT assassin despite finding Fireball in the last tile of the upper level after killing firstborn. Physical assassins are definitely improved, magical assassins weakened a little. Both are more fun to play in my view (the old caster assassin early game was just a series of fireballs against an inappropriately high-level enemy). Sticking burning on a poisoned enemy is helpful, especially at low levels.

Agree about Apheelsik with MR.
Venom dagger looks ok on paper to me at the moment. I'll give it a try. TT poison is too weak at the moment for the first tier at least. I think 2/4 would be balancedish. Surely not being able to be hit with TT (especially prepped) is a perfectly good counterbalance to regen melee fighters?

Mystic Balance was mainly used by the ridiculous caster assassin. -20% spell costs (rounded down/up) would keep Afeelsik and add Wonafyt to the list?
Blovski
 
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:21 pm

Re: Extra pixels

Postby The Avatar on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:14 pm

I don't know. Unless you have resists or the monsters are weak it's pretty lame. Totally agree with front-loading poison and making it circumvent MR.

For mystic balance I say make the balance point 4.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4453
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: Extra pixels

Postby Darvin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:34 pm

Was an absolutely top-tier class before the changes, maybe THE strongest at one point (i.e. when mage plate was ridiculous good)

Assassin has always been front-runner for the title of strongest pure caster class, but his opening game has always been hybrid or physical with a point towards evolving towards casting as he levels up. I'm not going to argue that the Assassin is underpowered now, rather I was just pointing out that the net change was a nerf.

Physical Assassins may enjoy an easier end-game with a super-BYSSEPS from APHEELSIK, but their early-game is still more challenging due to weaker poison.

Sticking burning on a poisoned enemy is helpful, especially at low levels.

Not enough mana, since a single application of poison won't cut it at low levels.

Venom dagger looks ok on paper to me at the moment

Works decently for a regen-fighter with high resistances, but unless you're a Monk it's a consolation prize at best. It's a bit less niche than its old form, but not by much. At low-levels the bloody sigil is a way better item for regen-fighting.

Surely not being able to be hit with TT (especially prepped) is a perfectly good counterbalance to regen melee fighters?

Consensus/desecration and tribute, along with the sacrifice of a little popcorn, will let you grab several layers and get out of his religion.

Mystic Balance was mainly used by the ridiculous caster assassin. -20% spell costs (rounded down/up) would keep Afeelsik and add Wonafyt to the list?

Very much so; Berserkers and Assassins were the only classes grabbing Mystic Balance with any frequency. As for what the solution is, I'll leave that to the devs. At its piety cost, a -25% (strictly rounded down) might work.

For mystic balance I say make the balance point 4.

That would probaby be too much for BURNDAYRAZ, even if it's fine for everything else.
User avatar
Darvin
 
Posts: 3148
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:44 am

Re: Extra pixels

Postby Blovski on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:07 am

1. Yep
2. Burning + Poison is doable with Whurgarbl as well. At level 1, vs. a level 2, Apheelsik prevents 5 tiles of regen, 1 stack of burning doubles the number of tiles for which a level 2 doesn't regen (so even with only 10 mana, you get 9 tiles of no regen). At level 1, vs. a level 3, Apheelsik prevents 3 tiles of regen, and 1 stack of burning increases by 50% the number of tiles for which a level 3 doesn't regen (so with 10 mana, you get 4 tiles, with 11 you get 5).

So, fighting a level 2 with Afeelsik + Burndayraz costs 11 mana, prevents 9 tiles of regen and deals an extra 5 damage (4+1 burning), fighting a level 2 with 2 Afeelsiks costs 10 mana, prevents 10 tiles of regen and deals no extra damage.
I.e. fighting a level with 3 Afeelsik + Burndayraz costs 11 mana, prevents 4 or 5 tiles of regen (depending on your mana level), whereas fighting a level 3 with 2 Afeelsiks costs 10 mana and prevents 6 tiles of regen.
At this level throwing in whurgarbl becomes an interesting proposition.

Sooo... the difference between poison-poison and poison-fireball is 1-2 tiles of regen against enemies 1-2 levels above you at level 1 but you get an extra 5 points of damage for that. Given you should probably melee when you fire the first afeelsik, the extra tile for burndayraz isn't wasted health regen. If you're going for a bigger springboard you'll need to be prepped for it.

3. Yeah, bloody sigil's better at low levels. Still, Venom Dagger's a thing I might pick up now having previously been a never-touch-item.

4. You can get out of TT, but if you're going TT, consensus for 2 layers (10 piety left, 20 gold), and then spend 60 gold to get out, that's a big opportunity cost. Alternatively, if you're going TT, desecrate (I guess Earthmother's the only good choice as a res-stacker), one layer, spend 15 gold to get a second, then you need to gather another 50 piety to get out. TT's not an easy god to dip in and out of early game, especially if you're reliant on regen fighting and especially if he's prepped... (monks aren't good at popcorn, but I guess it depends how early you envision pulling this off - if you just want to get it in place for later levels then it could work)

I mean, if you're in Naga City or Vicious G-T, then do what you like, but in a normal map I can't see it being a reliable strategy in most circumstances. You could piety farm ->100, jump to TT, then desecrate out but by that point you're really warping your playstyle and using up a load of tiles just to get it working.

5, 6. Yup.

---

@Avatar:
I'm not really sure what front-loading poison achieves apart from making the assassin's early game more like the old assassin's early game? And sticking 40 poison on a target for 10 mana at level 1, say, would give you 13-4 tiles of regen against a level 3, 10 against a level 4, which seems a bit disproportionate given the assassin is already doing fine at level 1 to 2...
Blovski
 
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:21 pm

Re: Extra pixels

Postby Lujo on Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:00 pm

Allright, a "no whining" "heroic failure" run rendering atm. I taped the play and the commentary simmultaneously, it's a wizard spotlight and it might be a lot friendlier to the audience than the 3 previous ones - I make mistakes, they end up costing me, and so on and so forth. It's gonna be rendering for a while, and it's probably gonna take ages to upload, but what can you do ^^
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2841
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Extra pixels

Postby Darvin on Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:26 pm

And sticking 40 poison on a target for 10 mana at level 1, say, would give you 13-4 tiles of regen against a level 3, 10 against a level 4, which seems a bit disproportionate given the assassin is already doing fine at level 1 to 2...

10 mana for 10 tiles of regeneration against a level 4 sounds fine to me. You've still got to survive the attack from that level 4, which for an Assassin means boosting your HP, which means you'll need more than 10 tiles to fully heal. That level of impracticality will more than keep poison in check.

HALPMEH, CYDSTEPP, and BLUDTUPOWA will all let you achieve considerable level-difference kills at low levels. I see no reason why APHEELSIK shouldn't either.
User avatar
Darvin
 
Posts: 3148
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:44 am

Re: Extra pixels

Postby Lujo on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:11 pm

http://youtu.be/8jztKCxKYhc - Wizard should be there in a few hours - if I'm lucky and the connection doesn't break :(

Strange thing is - I did a sucessfull purist Wizard, then I taped an unsucessfull purist Wizard, then I did a sucesfull purist Thief. The Thief found a Trisword, and used 2 sets of TT potions on Namtar (and joined TT at lvl 2 and spent most of the run there). I think a non-GG rogue could also do it.

Image

Strangest run in a while... I think I really ought to do a lvl2 TT any VICIOUS any class spotlight somewhere...
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2841
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

PreviousNext

Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 8 guests