[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 120: preg_filter(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 120: preg_filter(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 120: preg_filter(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 120: preg_filter(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 120: preg_filter(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
QCF Design Community • View topic - Super Vicious


Super Vicious

All things Desktop Dungeons

Re: Super Vicious

Postby FDru on Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:16 am

User avatar
FDru
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:41 am

Re: Super Vicious

Postby Lujo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:20 am

Well, it's the only thing that's really hurt by the change - you could argue the loss of overall health, sure, but that can be made up in several ways (or rather might be, I'm not that sure) - beads can't.
I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Super Vicious

Postby Blovski on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:09 pm

I kind of think a flat 3 or 4 piety cost under the old system would be my preference. Giving 2 beads might also work in terms of giving monotheists more of an edge than dippers-in.

Scaling health is a bad idea in my book - I tend to like keeping scaling and non-scaling resources balanced, and a scaling health bonus infringes on the dwarf late game quite a lot (and would be, health boosters aside, the only thing that does). If we had a ton of things people were using dwarves for, I'd be less bothered about that. Also, Rogues (which have always been the biggest problem-user of GG) really do not need this...

Bonus for level difference - seems finicky to me, and by forcing players to wait for best results/bead gained, it'll aggravate the timing problems for Enlightenment (i.e. you want to time it so you can actually do stuff afterwards) - the sweet spot for this has really been hurt.

Absolution is really one of the most interesting balance things in the game atm - it balances a small-medium permanent health bonus against non-trivial XP-loss, inventory-stuffing and also at lower levels massively increasing the time it takes to regen to full health to exploit that bonus. That regen-time thing is why I think it was less of a problem at level 1/2 than people have suggested.

Converters drop blood stains as well.

I.e. you need to explore to fill out your health, find a suitable monster, Ding so as not to lose momentum, fight at least 2 levels above you to avoid suffering seriously from the net-available-XP-loss, convert some glyphs you'd otherwise keep just to free up inventory space and repeat. Now, for Rogues this has never been a problem, but for everyone else it's a very resource intensive approach that forces you to fight a few levels ahead, especially once you drop the one-fight-one-level-up ratio. Fire Heart is an interesting mitigator on that.

I dunno, I can never tell if I'm too invested in strategies already in play, which is why I tend to resent any changes for a bit, but the Dwarf GG Paladin is more or less the only Dwarf I see used to blow out Vicious dungeons at the moment. Would be a shame to swap even that one for another human. Also, to some extent, I think these changes are largely being prompted by the rogue synergy, which is what people seem to most use GG for.

Now, the rogue synergy's very very strong, as is his synergy with more or less everything, but I don't think it's really GG's fault. I don't really know what else everyone else was going for with GG pre-nerf other than the Rogue? Did you guys feel he was too strong in practice on other characters?
Blovski
 
Posts: 909
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:21 pm

Re: Super Vicious

Postby FDru on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:28 pm

User avatar
FDru
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:41 am

Re: Super Vicious

Postby Lujo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:29 pm

Well, the Rogue is up there with the Tri-Sword on the short (and rapidly shortening) list of things that stick out like sore thumbs.

Just before the nerf kicked in I cleared most of the PQI warmonger runs using GG almost exclusively - small bit of preps for shifting passages, but in general absolution kicked ass even on parched warmonger warlords. Sure - the regen hit was there and I thought it'd slow me down, but it didn't really because going all in let me ding like a crazy person (especially with potions).

From the notes:

PQI Warmonger Dwarf Assasin - Also went Miser. Is undoable without GG, or at least I can't think of a way to kill the physical immune guy without cleansing with the recent changes, as a warmonger.

PQI Purist Goblin Tinker in Hex Ruins - Went Warmonger as I was missing it. Found GG, and he won it for me. Absolution everything and enlightment. And when I say everything I mean everything. I drank a health potion here and there...

PQI Warmonger Dwarf Warlord in Hobbler's Went parched as well. Found GG right at the entrance, absovlved everything, and took 2 hits of "Protection" for the boss at lvl 5ish. Hobblers, I know, but still - a parched warmonger warlord is the same as a guard (worse because the guard can use glyphs and drink potions).

PQI Warmonger Dwarf Warlord in HHoS Also went parched. Prepped GG this time to ease on the scumming. So technicaly, you can take a dwarven guard and GG and beat at least HHoS. Medusa was the other boss, but in this case she's not the easies you can get due to orb and actualy sort of working against this... strat.

PQI Warmonger Dwarf Paladin in Slime Pits didn't go parched or purist, but picked up a Dragonshield and extra attack. Then went GG, absolved everything, went enlightment, converted everything and killed SMM and the Goo Blob.

PQI Parched Orc Paladin in Shifting Passages Went cheeky, unstoppable and specialist as well, but I could've had more - I didn't really need to use HALPMEH, and I didn't need the Martyr Wraps. I could've played it regularly, since it's an ok run, but I prepped extra attack, GG and the potions, absolved everything, converted everything (only thing I bought were a late MW), regen fought SMM to death, and then killed Evolvia with little problems. I'm missing Faithless here.

PQI Cheeky Dwarf Transmuter on Eastern Tundra Well, I really could've used the opportunity to try regular stuff out, but then I remembered that the boss has retaliate fireball and just prepped GG and roflstomped it by absolving everything. To make up for it, I bought the balanced dagger and used it to kill same lvl-undead post absolution, was probably suboptimal but notheless fun. Also, absolving everything on a GG dwarf... anything, makes Drac have no desecration penalty. This also means you can save your health potions and use them.

Flaming Dwarf Priest in Venture Cave Picked up GG, had extra boosters prepped, absolved everything, converted everything, killed lord Gobb without Enlightment. OK, so I did use Bycepps.

PQI Warmonger Elf Berserker on Havendale Bridge Brought only GG and the Whoopases. Bought one healing potion, otherwise miser, and had 0 benefits from converting stuff except GG piety. Won without enlightment.

Stopped making notes every time I simply walked into somewhere with absolution, ignored everything and beat the place with/without englighment. Most were without any natural sinergy after that point - not even dwarves, paladins or sometimes without any relevant class features...

What do you read from all this? The health boost itelf could be accomplished by simply prepping an alch scroll and investing some gold (you can probably get more health than from enlightment tbh).
I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Super Vicious

Postby Blovski on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:58 pm

Blovski
 
Posts: 909
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:21 pm

Re: Super Vicious

Postby Lujo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:23 pm

I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Super Vicious

Postby gjaustin on Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:25 pm

gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

Re: Super Vicious

Postby Blovski on Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:30 pm

@Lujo, Dracul (resists, ton of extra resources, blood swell) and TT (less so when prepped) can both be acceptable warmonger options. Binlor can cope with bear mace prepped on the right map, but I wouldn't generally recommend him.
Blovski
 
Posts: 909
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:21 pm

Re: Super Vicious

Postby Lujo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:44 pm

Ooooh, didn't even think of those O.O

See, that's what happens when you get handed the too good + too obvious solutions, your brain gets lazy ^^

I'll try those out - I was actually worried about this.
I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

PreviousNext

Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 59 guests