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Re: Super Vicious

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:17 am
by Naoya
Blovski wrote:If anything, the change to B2P in general makes this comparatively stronger. Similarly, his mana regen on a bloodstain and mana potion bonus gives him a big advantage in mana spiking at the end of the game, which is what B2P is really useful for.

I think you'd just need to play with slightly different preps to the usual crystal-balling deathmonster which was the current metagame bloodmage.

Out of interest, what would people say the current 5 frontrunners are for sub supervicious stuff?

I mean, Rogue, obviously, but after him? (I'd go Bloodmage, Wizard?, Assassin, Tinker?, Vampire?)

This certainly applies to a fully prepped Blood Mage, but I could see a purist BloodMage struggling a bit.
Purist Bloodmage naturally can't make up for his weakness as good as a fully prepped one, so he has to rely more on B2P during his early phase. However, relying heavily on B2P early on costs him much of his lategamepower and extra resources, which is pretty much all he is about.

Also, him being better at using B2P than other classes (right now, he only has more resources for it - but he doesn't use it better) would fit the "T3 are king with their own glyph" thing better. Yes, he has the bloodpools, but I see them similar to what the bonus dmg of the warlord is ; they supplement and give him an incentive to use his glyph rather than making him better at it than other classes. Though, in all honesty, that is more nitpicking about details.

Regarding the vicious thing: Not sure, but what about Warlord? He's always been good at being ridicoulous.

Re: Super Vicious

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:02 am
by Sidestepper
Depends on the map. Berserker absolutely dismantles VHoS and Dragon Isles, even with the addition of all of the curse stuff. But the Berserker also chokes on maps that strictly test you in multiple ways. Thief is never the ideal answer to any given challenge but is also never stonewalled by any one thing either. Wizard can be similar, depending on what you do with him.

Re: Super Vicious

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:23 am
by Lujo
Bloodmage is the king of B2P, starting with 20% sanguine is enough to make a workable class, starting with 20% boostable sanguine which regens mana is worth any difficult openings he might have. A "fully prepped" bloodmage just prepped mysterea, fireball magnet and the blue bead - is that supposed to be broken? Because that alone gets him to become a machine gun with 1 fireball per popcorn killed. Before the nerf he didn't even need Mysterea, so yeah... BM has been nerfed SLIGHTLY - now you can't do everything and anything imaginable with him easily. B2P wasnt even nerfed, it's been really wrong the way it was before, and I'm currently yawning my way through vicious versions of stuff that isn't suposed to be vicious while using it.

Anyway, add Ick Swamp to the list. Goblin Sorcerer, Mysterea w Soul Orb prepped, Magic-Mystic Balance-Magic-Flames-Refershment-2/3 Weakenings. Other boss was Wraith, had (un)Balanced Dagger, Mage Plate and B2P. It was rather easy if you know your way around Ick.

EDIT: As a B2P tip - if Drac forked one over (impossible I know due to how unlocks work, learning curve, and he'd need a nerf) so there was a way to prep it, i'd say this - now you actually have a reason to go dwarf or halfling on a spellcaster. Before it worked too well with anything. Also, I like how there's a reason to go Sorcerer now, excellent job on the dev's part.

And I still want vicious out of the PQI and completion for good reasons, I'm only doing this because I can time-wise and not to lose my :ugeek: cred within the vet community after being dramatic.

Re: Super Vicious

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:52 am
by Sidestepper
I, huh, really don't think we should be making any of the Normal or Hard content harder. Almost every time we've had a new player post while they were still new, their complaint has been that they hit an absolute brick wall once they leave Den of Danger. An expert can trounce any of the beginner-to-intermediate content. This isn't a problem.

Re: Super Vicious

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:02 am
by Lujo
Well, true. I've just been wondering what was the point of making vicious part of the PQI then if it wasn't to see if a few of the early ones would get some pro feedback and maybe be adjusted... Wasn't suggesting anything, except removing vicious from PQI.

And as for why I though the devs might be interested in this kind of thing is - add Southern Swamp to that list... (of completed viciouses, 9-ish to go - no goblin assassins, either, as far as I remember :))

Southern Swamp - PQI Halfling Wizard, CB and Mysterea as major preps (and the whoopases), picked up flames and some mana, made a popcorn bowl, started on Jormungandr at lvl 2, consensus to Drac, killed him at 6 (drac boon) without any major boons (did pick up everything from drac except the resists, 2 bloodswells). Anyway, B2P still awesome, and halfling wizards with B2P preffer Drac to Mysterea. Oh, and I'm also picking Alchemist for the 2 Schadenfraude and a health and mana potion on almost every run.

Re: Super Vicious

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:47 am
by dislekcia
Lujo wrote:And I still want vicious out of the PQI and completion for good reasons, I'm only doing this because I can time-wise and not to lose my :ugeek: cred within the vet community after being dramatic.

Actually your "cred" is kinda nonexistent right now. I don't think you realise how weirdly that earlier outburst came across... You may want to tone it down a few notches - get as far away from the ragequit/drama queen end of the scale.

Re: Super Vicious

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:01 am
by Lujo
Oh, I'm aware - the reaction was just very emotional and genuine, and is basicaly what you're getting from regular folks to whom the difficulty ramps up way faster then they're comfortable with and the game starts asking too much of them. It's the same reaction as the "shifting passages took the wind out of me" from the new poster, only I obviously have serious communication issues. It's a reaction of a normal, regular person who's life isn't devoted primarily to playing DD.

And while you're free to judge and be annoyed, make a note also that I'm beating the vicious stuff rather easily with stuff that's wasn't really being speculated as "viable" by most other guys (out loud anyway), I'm avoiding the 1st lvl Rogue, and I'm not scumming. Screw my retardedness, the :geek: in me can still beat anything the game throws at me, it's that the regular joe in me wanted to just stop an cry - and with good reasons.

EDIT: And in case it's not clear - I beat frank with a halfling warlord using stoneskin. I didn't bat an eye when the PQI set me up with him, other people would've rerolled faster than you can say "wtfisthismadness".

Re: Super Vicious

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:30 pm
by xspeedballx
Yea, I am sorry Lujo your tirade, and your vocal return have shattered any level of respect for your opinions I had. This is a beta.. and it is a beta with WEEKLY updates. If you don't like a decision it is enough to say, "Hey, I don't like this decision and here is why!" Many people agree logically why Vicious should not be on the PQI. However, you stamping your feet, "quitting", and then returning and bragging about how it is easy any way is completely childish and it poisons your opinions and your posts.

This is not some MOBA forum where capital letters and hyperbole are necessary to get seen. There are about 20 of us actively contributing here. Any post is guaranteed to be read. Just make a solid point. Don't even have to be unemotional, but dear lord the tantrums are droll.

The PQI thread has already shed a bit of light around the design. It also shed some light on the current flaws(and potential bugs). Really the complaint about "Vicious" being in the PQI is also circling the same drain. I am fairly certain based on the responses we have seen that the developers are likely at least putting some additional thought in the role PQI plays going forward. As for Vicious being in the PQI I can't say whether or not it bothers me or not. I don't feel good enough(or comfortable enough any way) to do most of the PQI's. So whether Vicious is there or not is largely moot for me. However if the Vicious is there to stay, just make it so that it only comes up after all other Vicious dungeons are completed at least once, and 80% of badges are complete over all. This makes so it is prioritized as some of the last stuff you need to complete(which is essentially the situation you are in now any way.)

Re: Super Vicious

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:09 pm
by Lujo
For the love of god. I was freaked out that all of a sudden there's this justification for never giving up on stuff that's actually creating problems with the learning curve. The incline between one boss and two boss dungeons, especially cramped ones, is making people viciously defend every unbalanced bit of an edge they can squeeze - and some of those are/were so good that you didn't in fact have to learn anything except learning how to spot them.

The game is really good at allowing you to drop everything but the training wheels at times.

Making the vicious runs seem mandatory in any way just reinforces the idea that the Trisword is legit, that the old B2P was fine, and so on and so forth. All that makes the game more elitist and inacessible in the long run - I can do all those runs, but I don't imagine most regular homo sapiens would even want to. The difficulty, such as it is, is challenging and intriguing to me as a bored vet, but it's incredibly offputing and insulting to me as a human being - especially considering the solutions.

Re: Super Vicious

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:48 pm
by Lujo
If anyone finds a solution to vicious CO other than the regular stuff I'd be realy interested in hearing it.

PQI Elf Fighter failed 5 times.

Gnome Warlord did it in one try. JJ, Cauldron, RBS, later dragonsoul. Wouldn't have done it if I didn't have the trisword, but I thought as much so I went with Quest Items rather than alchemist. Just in case anyone really wants to do it.