Super Vicious

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Re: Super Vicious

Postby xspeedballx on Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:52 pm

1) So there is some thing difficult enough to keep you intrigued? That's good.
2) There are things in place that make other difficult content easier and interesting? That's good.
3) This means there are multiple tiers of difficulty you can work through? That's good.
4) There is a difficulty spike breaking into those tiers? That's a design problem/decision.
5) You have concerns about a new features implementation after 1 day of it's release? Ok, state that without hyperbole, test some more, reiterate and see what the dev's do and say.
6) Is this a beta with a rapid release design? Yes it very much is and all of the pro's and con's that go with it.

If you can't see how your communication undermines what you actually say there is not much that can be done.

Honestly, you might consider taking the "time off" you implied you would and come back in a week or two. You have been getting increasingly agitated again after a decent amount of time of more moderate feedback.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby Lujo on Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:13 pm

True, true.

Yep, I've been getting agitated again. :( It's all the PQI runs and the system limitations vista opening up after you really hit the PQI hard. I do need a break. Plus, all's been going swell as far as the game shaping up goes as far as I'm concerned, well all the things that've caught my attention and plenty of those that haven't. The specifics of CB and BM adjustments were nothing short of brilliant, IMO, especially if bringing sorcerer out into the spotlight was the intention (as a distinct viable choice).

This vicious thing freaked me out because I've seen it all before, and the old magma mines / "you just have to scumm/prep the "right" stuff" metagame drove me up the wall even back then. It was really offputting for people who weren't interested in investing too much time in the game... I'm really sad I can't come across the way I want - the whole "what's the exact reason that vets find HARD easy and novices hit a brick wall?" discussion with the potions and all that is actually really interesting and something I'd love seing solved if at all possible (seeing the depths of the PQI makes me sceptical that it can be fixed).

Anyway, yeah, just ease the grip on the stuff you're comfortable with guys - it's all worked out great whenever that's been done. I don't do this stuff for selfish reasons, even the too egocentric stuff.



Anyway, Havendale Bridge, Rock Garden, Hex Ruins and Creeplight are probably difficult enough with crampedness and resource denial that the introduction of the 2nd boss had made them too hard for the average player. I've noticed this on the playthrough but couldn't be sure - except that once the potions were unlocked I was breezing through places I was having trouble with a few runs before that. It's also probably the reason why the few things that beat vicious+ seem so necessary for not having a frustrating game. Maybe those dungeons could do with non-random custom bosses for less randomness and less overall power. With the stuff that would in all other circumstances deserve a nerf out of the pictury - they'd be too hard, and the vets can have the vicious mode for thier antics, as long as it's not pushed into normal peoples game.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby Darvin on Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:42 pm

Well, that was a fun vicious run. Hexx Ruins, Trilling Rogue with maxed out preps and... Frank as my boss. Worship Jehora Jeheyu, do my best to smack down monsters, and Stheno only gets to absorb two creatures once I'm done. Use a reflex/quicksilver/fireball/first strike combo to knock out Stheno, then turn to Frank... and how the hell am I going to survive this guy? I'm completely out of potions. I buy a pendant of health... not enough HP to survive him.

I convert all my glyphs (I'm out of mana and mana potions anyways) except HALPMEH, giving me enough piety to convert to Dracul, my ace in the hole. I convert HALPMEH and a healing potion, letting me grab blood shield. Not enough HP to survive yet, what if I also grab blood hunger? I do some math; if I can get two hits of blood hunger that will let me survive with two hits of sanguine. With some lucky dodges, this could be doable. I take blood curse, and roll the roulette wheel and desecrate JJ. It's a win, but it's still not enough piety. I grimace and desecrate Mystera and Taurog. My expected damage output plummets, but I can now actually fight Frank.

I survive each attack with 3 or 4 HP to spare, and can then recharge with sanguine to return to fight again (since I need my resists to survive and all popcorn was absorbed by Stheno, blood swell is a no-go). After clearing all blood pools on the top-level I'm one hit away from beating Frank. I remember there's one in my subdungeon and grab it, but it leaves me just shy of the necessary HP. I consider going for a lucky dodge, then stop and realize that I'm very close to a conversion threshold and Frank is down to under 50 HP. I convert my Trisword, giving me a healing potion to chug, and I finish Frank.

Whew, that was one nasty boss. 150 damage and 1200 HP is more than a little outrageous. However, as I've just shown, it's not quite as outrageous as a JJ->Dracul Trilling.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby xspeedballx on Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:54 pm

Ok, so following comments I have made. You are using JJ. HOW are you using JJ? I read this and go "this is all elite speak that I don't know!" So what do you do with JJ on this build? How does the benefit you? Is there an order? A decision tree? Educate me please!
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby Darvin on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:28 pm

There's really only one trick to using Jehora Jeheyu effectively: find him very early in the dungeon run. If you can do that, he's great (even if he is a bit o fa gamble), but if you find him later on then you should just ignore him. I was running 4-altar, so JJ wasn't so much part of my build as a fortuitous combo, no different than I would have grabbed the Troll Heart had I found it at level 1.

I got petition first, sucking up the debuffs he threw my way. I explored and WEYTWUT-spammed until I had petition and my first layer of boost health, then I started bringing down monsters. I picked up boost mana and a second layer of boost health. I then saved up for chaos avatar (which I ultimately used to knock out the two level 9 Nagas and recover from their weakening afterwards). At that point, my eye was on converting out of the religion. Once you've used chaos avatar there's nothing left for you in JJ's religion; the boosts are much too expensive at this point, chaos avatar is one-time, and Last Chance has too low a success chance unless there's literally no one available to convert into.

JJ's not really that complicated, he's just really finicky as to his piety generation. If you find him really early his bonuses will stack up nicely, but if you don't you just won't have enough piety to do everything you need to. You can also jump into him from a sufficiently-farmed Binlor, Mystera, or Earthmother (so long as you still have lots of exploration space left), but that's rare.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby The Avatar on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:29 am

Sort of off topic, but I nailed down Vicious Vicious Namtar.

Image

MA to TT. Prepped Dragon Soul (great spellcaster item), Extra gold, MA, Extra Mana, Apothecary, Transmutation Seal. Used MA for Flames, 2 magics, and Mystic Balance. I revealed the whole map around level one, used Agnostics Collar to desecrate Drac and convert to TT then proceeded to murder. Wicked guitar at level three. Piercing Wand vs Namtar form one. Only significant buy other than that was the Witchalock pendant. Form 2 is easy, just use a mid-fight level up or two. Form 3 is also easy. Just use a mid-fight level up and a potion or two. Form 4 is the tricky one. I saved WEYTWUT from the beginning. I started off with Whupaz, then just fireballed to activate Schadenfreude, but otherwise WEYTWUT, then BURNDAYRAZ. Form 5 is easy. Just fireball while you uncover the map, whittling down his hp. Form 6 is a joke. Although it did more damage to me than form 5...

As for JJ, just grab him early. Get petition RIGHT AWAY. Use a fortitude tonic and/or a burn salve, curing whatever is worse (your weakening or corrosion). From there there are two ways to play him: Chaos Avatar or Quick boosts. For chaos avatar you can grab one or two boosts, then stay for Chaos Avatar, and finally use Last Chance against the boss (unless you can convert out to Drac or GG for better healing). For quick boosts grab petition, one or two boosts and immediately convert out. You usually want to convert out early (level 3 or earlier) to the god you actually want. I will warn that this will probably take out most of your regen space.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby q 3 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:45 am

Congratulations! The dragon has been slain. Well, not the dragon. You know what I mean. Speaking of which, I still need to do a Dragon Isles video (normal vicious, not vicious vicious). I think I'll give the Sorcerer a spin...
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby The Avatar on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:55 am

I was trying out Dragon Isles Vicious Vicious, same strategy as above (roughly). I got the matron down to 400, but I didn't even have any way to slow her. Still, I figure the next easiest is The Avatar, but you'll have to scum for the Piercing Wand. Naga City is probably impossible, but I won't doubt the strength of the monk.
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I speak chaos.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby Darvin on Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:44 am

MA to TT

Nice; pretty much optimal for Namtar's Lair with a Goblin Assassin.

used Agnostics Collar to desecrate Drac

Seriously, you had MA, TT, and Dracul all on the field? Wow, just wow. Nice draw.

As for JJ, just grab him early. Get petition RIGHT AWAY. Use a fortitude tonic and/or a burn salve

The problem is that you can often get away with just 1 layer of each. It doesn't merit sinking a potion into these. If you prep JJ then it makes sense to bring these and use them to charge up your trisword, but if it's a spontaneous combo I usually just live with what gives me unless it's crippling or Earthmother is lying around somewhere (in which case, burn cure ahoy!)

Also, Chaos Avatar is not exclusive with converting out or getting more than two boosts. You need a lot of piety to do it, but in that game I describe I got three boosts (two health, one mana), chaos avatar, and still managed to convert out without any desecrations.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby FDru on Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:59 am

Darvin wrote:Also, Chaos Avatar is not exclusive with converting out or getting more than two boosts. You need a lot of piety to do it, but in that game I describe I got three boosts (two health, one mana), chaos avatar, and still managed to convert out without any desecrations.


Ehh... I still have never been able to do this. Are you sure it isn't just extremely luck-based or is there some actual method to getting that much JJ Piety?
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