Super Vicious

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Re: Super Vicious

Postby The Avatar on Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:03 am

Wow. In a late game conversion to Drac or GG, sure. Clearly you have better punishment luck than me. I got hit by 3 weakening once.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby gjaustin on Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:07 am

FDru wrote:
Darvin wrote:Also, Chaos Avatar is not exclusive with converting out or getting more than two boosts. You need a lot of piety to do it, but in that game I describe I got three boosts (two health, one mana), chaos avatar, and still managed to convert out without any desecrations.


Ehh... I still have never been able to do this. Are you sure it isn't just extremely luck-based or is there some actual method to getting that much JJ Piety?


Using WEYTWHUT to move all the level 1-3 monsters to the middle of the map should build up quite a lot of piety, in addition to all the bonus experience.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby The Avatar on Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:44 am

Exactly. Unfortunately, it usually also kills a solid chunk of blackspace.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby q 3 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:48 am

Spamming the cheapest piety-generating glyphs (BICEPS, GETINDARE, and WONAFYT, and to a lesser extent APHEELSIK) instead of the more expensive WEYTWUT results in significantly faster piety gain with JJ. Maybe I'll do a JJ Rogue video sometime, if everyone promises not to complain about the scumming required to make it work. ;)
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby The Avatar on Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:26 am

Really? I think he gives an extra bonus for slowing, so I'd put WONAFYT down as the ultimate piety generator.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby Darvin on Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:16 am

Ehh... I still have never been able to do this. Are you sure it isn't just extremely luck-based or is there some actual method to getting that much JJ Piety?

Find him early, spam glyphs that make him happy and keep your fingers crossed (becuase there is a luck factor).

Wow. In a late game conversion to Drac or GG, sure. Clearly you have better punishment luck than me. I got hit by 3 weakening once.

I'll see that on occasion, as well, but most of the time I get to 45 with one layer each.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby Sidestepper on Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:23 am

If you really want to get a feel for JJ at peak power, do this:

Gnome Wizard
Elven Boots
JJ altar prep
Extra Mana
Scadenfreude, Mana, +3 junk potions
Shop Scroll
Random Blacksmith junk (pick a cheap one)
Compression Seal

The Wizard's glyph powers plus the compression seal go a long way to making JJ's prep penalty tolerable. Spam WEYTWUT whenever your mana is full and work your way towards the glyphs. If you find GETINDERE, BYCEPS, or APHEELSIK, you can use these as cheaper alternatives to WEYTWUT for piety generation. I like to find a mid level meat man and punch him whenever my mana fills up so that I can reset BYCEPS/GETINDERE.

WONAFYT doesn't actually give you piety. It summons a monster to you, and if that monster was new, you get the usual piety, but it doesn't give you any innate piety. You can confirm this by WONAFYTing an already discovered monster. For this reason I don't recommend using it too much, since it ultimately means less piety for you than if you had used your blackspace to fuel other spells.

Most of the stuff you brought in with you is there to be converted. Junk the shop scroll, blacksmith item, and off-flavor potions as soon as you have all of your glyphs. Take Petition as soon as possible and then you keep taking layers of Boost Mana. With the guaranteed early glyphs from the Wizard, along with the efficient casting cost, you can probably afford four layers (the theoretical maximum) and still bank enough piety for a late game Chaos Avatar.

Each layer of boost mana adds 1.2 mana to each future potion consumption, so if you are a gnome with a huge supply of potions, you always come out ahead. The minimum you should aim for is 25, which is when each potion is worth 2 fireballs, but overkill is always welcome.

The gnome Warlord works also, but is complicated by the fact that you cannot simply ignore physical damage. The Warlord also lacks the piety collection benefits of the Wizard. It still works though, and it even worked before the Extra Attack/Extra Mana preps existed.

Halfling health monsters of JJ don't work as well. The issue is that flat health boosts don't scale the way that flat mana boosts do. It's okay, it's just not great. Try it with a Halfling Priest.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby Lujo on Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:56 am

Darvin wrote:I'll see that on occasion, as well, but most of the time I get to 45 with one layer each.


Yes, most of the time you only get weakened, corroded and cursed once, sometimes posioned, rarely mana burned, before you reach Petition. You do have to keep your eyes peeled to grab it as fast as you can. I've never been abouve 2 weakening and 2 corrosion before petition myself.

And corrosion and weakening in small ammounts aren't really felt if you have a way to get past lvl1.

He gives piety for converting items (not sure about specifics) and he also gives piety for killing stuff. I think he doesn't do anything with BURNDAYRAZ or ENDISWAL.
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby paplaukes on Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:32 am

Ways to gain JJ piety: he likes mob discoveries, he likes teleports, he likes when you oneshot (or maybe that's slowed mobs, or both). Likes conversions, likes... first strike/bycepss/wonafyt. The luck bit probably is finding him early. I find if you find him early on, there's enough piety for at least petition, 1health(and perhaps 1 mana) bump and chaos avatar. I probably even spend some time at 100 piety when waiting for a good moment to use the avatar. My favourite way - bossfight with few xp to level, kill an easy mob, level, use up health/mana, avatar level. Very powerful.

Edit: managed to miss an entire page of replies listing pretty much the same :)
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Re: Super Vicious

Postby Lujo on Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:56 am

Darvin wrote:Well, that was a fun vicious run. Hexx Ruins, Trilling Rogue with maxed out preps and... Frank as my boss. Worship Jehora Jeheyu, do my best to smack down monsters, and Stheno only gets to absorb two creatures once I'm done. Use a reflex/quicksilver/fireball/first strike combo to knock out Stheno, then turn to Frank... and how the hell am I going to survive this guy? I'm completely out of potions. I buy a pendant of health... not enough HP to survive him.

I convert all my glyphs (I'm out of mana and mana potions anyways) except HALPMEH, giving me enough piety to convert to Dracul, my ace in the hole. I convert HALPMEH and a healing potion, letting me grab blood shield. Not enough HP to survive yet, what if I also grab blood hunger? I do some math; if I can get two hits of blood hunger that will let me survive with two hits of sanguine. With some lucky dodges, this could be doable. I take blood curse, and roll the roulette wheel and desecrate JJ. It's a win, but it's still not enough piety. I grimace and desecrate Mystera and Taurog. My expected damage output plummets, but I can now actually fight Frank.

I survive each attack with 3 or 4 HP to spare, and can then recharge with sanguine to return to fight again (since I need my resists to survive and all popcorn was absorbed by Stheno, blood swell is a no-go). After clearing all blood pools on the top-level I'm one hit away from beating Frank. I remember there's one in my subdungeon and grab it, but it leaves me just shy of the necessary HP. I consider going for a lucky dodge, then stop and realize that I'm very close to a conversion threshold and Frank is down to under 50 HP. I convert my Trisword, giving me a healing potion to chug, and I finish Frank.

Whew, that was one nasty boss. 150 damage and 1200 HP is more than a little outrageous. However, as I've just shown, it's not quite as outrageous as a JJ->Dracul Trilling.


This is awesome, both as an achevement and as info. I was having trouble with Hex Ruins, but I was trying to bundle it with another PQI thing - not smart with vicious runs. I'm also convinced theres got to be some really genious way of going through that place with EM, allthough I'm not sure how much scumming would it involve.

Also, havendale brigde went down. Goblin Sorcerer prepped to the eyeballs (CB, Mysterea, translocation seal, fireball magnet), found a balanced dagger and an early wheytwut, translocated dragonsoul, payed the troll, killed one hitball guy at lvl 7 (way too late), magic-magic-mystic balance-refreshment-3 weakenings, burnt down the goo blob while using the health to kill some lvl6/7 (health useless against the bosses), blob burning took lvls 5 and 6, took the aforementioned weakenings, dodge+whoopaz on zin kibaru and then burned him down. The apotechary turned out to be just barely overkill (would've been necessary if I had no dragonsoul).

Took me 3 tries before I decided to pay the troll, which is the same I thing I did early in the kingdom development.

Anyway, the dings and the CB work really well with the sorcerer (multile vicious wins). He's the big mana guy, and the Bloodmage is big health/B2P guy (fire heart, overheal, subdungeons, blackspace saving). Dragonsoul is good on both for the spike. Sorc is also ok with B2P, but bloodmage can go machine gun, and sorc needs to invest in big mana stuff to increase the ding power out of his mana pool.
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