Rambling

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Re: Rambling

Postby paplaukes on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:20 am

I'll just nod and smile ;)
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Re: Rambling

Postby dislekcia on Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:30 pm

booooooze wrote:God, that all sounds so negative. I don't want to be negative. It's a great game. I guess I'm saying: don't nerf everything until the game is no fun, just because six people on your message board are good at the game.


Heard, understood, acknowledged!

We're not trying to make things incessantly harder, we're aware of the bias towards veteran play in the forums, which is why we try to base decisions off the play stats that we're collecting through the beta. The design changes that have been coming down the pipeline are pretty much the last ones we want to make - this is us kicking the tires of balance one last time, going through things methodically and pulling down the values we said we'd test at level x for a bit trying to see if the stuff we change breaks the game or not. Because, argh, knock-on effects keep jumping out of the woodwork.

Most of the rest of the game's balance is going to happen via information display - we're trying to make coming up with a strong/powerful strategy easier and thus more fun - you noticed something that the game's hinting at and turned it into a good run... At least, that's the feeling we're aiming for. The plan is to make the early game feel more rewarding by having it be more approachable, then before you know it you're doing level cannons and prepping the most imba combo you can think of ;)

As for Lujo on ignore? No, he's not. We just take his posts with extremely large pinches of salt, given where they're coming from. He's put a ton of time into the game and we can't fault that (although for some reason that time was made worthless recently, go figure) - he's just not very good at handling certain types of conversation calmly. Can't fault passion either, but getting frequently carried away means it's difficult to have sensible dialog. Personally, I do tend to get annoyed with long rants that are more about defending previous negative behavior, rather than just not engaging in said negative pattern again, but that's probably just a response I've evolved over years and years of running forums.
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Re: Rambling

Postby Lujo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:53 pm

Vid's done - sound's terrible and I don't know what's up with that. It consists of a little bit of ranting before and after a vicious sorceror run in venture cave with experimental explanations of mysterea, the role of gods from a vet's perspective, and some stuff on the sorcerer. There's clicking I can't get rid of, but seeing how this is an experimental vid and some of the things I said simply can't be honest and flattering at the same time I don't mind if they're only checked out by the regular forum crowd and the devs.

Feedback appriciated - not just for me, but any feedback would explain a lot about what makes figuring out gods difficult, and the devs could probably use that. I've planned to scrape all of the vids soonish and start a line of regular ones with no complaining and no "let's beta-test DD" stuff and in stead actual "let's-play". It's rendering ATM, I appologize for the sound quality, it's an hour long, but I'll post a link here when it's done.
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Re: Rambling

Postby Blovski on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:06 pm

As a sort-of-vet who's been back on the forums for a few weeks. AFAIK, at the moment there's exactly one item I think is far enough above the power curve it needs curbing, and that's specifically a Prepped Trisword combined with a ton of prepped potions. I kind of think the general power-level of stuff in the game has increased a lot rather than dropped, and it's a few runaway strategies that have gotten taken in to reward better play.
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Re: Rambling

Postby xspeedballx on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:23 pm

To counter-point you and tying to the original conversation though Blovski, a prepped tri-sword with a million potions is FUN! It has not stopped being fun for me. When it stops being fun there is some other fun strategy that can be prepped(acid caster), or many many more. *I* can't use it in every dungeon and win, though I have scored a number of wins with a prepped tri-sword. Dislekcia seem to to just imply that powerful and degenerate combo's are part of the point.
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Re: Rambling

Postby Lujo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:42 pm

xspeedballx wrote:Dislekcia seem to to just imply that powerful and degenerate combo's are part of the point.


Ofc they are, but exactly how degenerate are we talking about - that's the thing. How degenerate do you need? Because there's stuff in there that you can get really silly with which doesn't mess anything up.
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Re: Rambling

Postby Blovski on Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:15 pm

xspeedballx wrote:To counter-point you and tying to the original conversation though Blovski, a prepped tri-sword with a million potions is FUN! It has not stopped being fun for me. When it stops being fun there is some other fun strategy that can be prepped(acid caster), or many many more. *I* can't use it in every dungeon and win, though I have scored a number of wins with a prepped tri-sword. Dislekcia seem to to just imply that powerful and degenerate combo's are part of the point.


It's only fun for me when there's a good reason the combo should work beyond just 'triswords are good' and when it requires interaction with the dungeon's resources. If you're throwing it on a Halfling or Gnome, or using TT to exaggerate it, or are trying to use health potions early on for higher-level kills or whatever that's pretty cool, buut it seems like Triswords are basically just the default prep for most classes now because you can get +6-10 damage all game, a level 4-5 kill at level 1 then just play it like it's any other game from there.

I like the concept of the trisword but it doesn't promote interesting gameplay when prepped atm, in my view. Non-prepped, it's perfect.
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Re: Rambling

Postby xspeedballx on Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:29 pm

I know I am repeating myself, but is that strength undeserved given that it's not like the tri-sword is super easy to get in the first place? It isn't like you haven't already had to learn to play the game to a moderate degree to even succeed at acquiring it? Then you have to learn how best to use it?(SPAM ALL THE POTS, but wait I needed some of those..) Please don't think I am naive and don't realize it is probably in the top 3 preppable items for strength. It is also a straight forward "blunt object" in utility. Which makes it largely obvious and strong. I am just not convinced that is a bad thing. It translates late game flexibility into early game efficiency which for some is fantastic use of resources and for others is baffling if you still don't know how to control black space well.

Obvious and strong can be really good for a game, especially a rogue like. RPG's in general benefit from them. It gives a comfortable and safish path for learning.
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Re: Rambling

Postby Lujo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:35 pm

Again, true - but why have it be THIS good? Don't you think it'd still be what you describe if it was just a bit less strong? Or if it had alternatives for help with specific badges instead of being the be-all, end-all solution too too many dillemas at the same time? On top of being slightly less strong?

I can think of at least 4-5 swords that can be in the game that I wouldn't mind - a sword that charged off off glyph conversions to steer towards warmonger, a sword which worked by consuming large batches of piety (EDIT) but doesn't work if you worship to help with faithless, a sword that worked of desecrations in the same vein, a sword which consumed max health to help with dvarwes... And I can think of ways in which neither you or paplaukes would really feel the trisword's been significantly altered at all, yet they'd fix the issues the vets, knowing whats in the game, have with the current tri-sword?

Why can't you believe that the devs can also come up with this sort of stuff?
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Re: Rambling

Postby xspeedballx on Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:57 pm

I absolutely believe they could come up with this stuff. I am also pretty sure they had. There are probably cutting room floor items and boons and spells and class bonuses in scraps of code all over the place. Such is the nature of iterative design. I cannot speak for how convinced they are it needs to be fixed, I can just speak for me.

The only argument I keep hearing from "the vets" is that the game is too easy once you understand it. You can use this one strategy to achieve wins all of the place. I am 100% positive there is more to this that I am just not understanding, because like I keep saying those generally considered broken strategies do not equal instant-wins for everyone, and quite possibly never will. Tri-sword prep is not a win for me. Honestly I am not sure I win more prepping or not. Early potion use often leaves me hurting. Let me put it this way though, I don't speak for everyone. Neither do you. There are probably huge magnitude more players of this beta than those who post or read these forums. I know this because that is generally true for most games. The statement that everyone uses tri-sword and wins may not be reflective of the larger player base. The statement(mine) that resource management can be baffling when starting to utilize "broken" strats also may not be reflective of the larger player base either.
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