Rambling

All things Desktop Dungeons

Re: Rambling

Postby Lujo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:06 pm

And again - all you say is true. But I'm not saying that the game is too easy, or that there'd be anything wrong with where the game is once you know enough - the way it was concieved. Vicious mode freaked me out because, if not clearly separated from the regular game, it caters to this "elitist" mentality. Not necessarily intentionaly, but in case you haven't noticed - I am not one of those guys! I don't need the game to be more challenging than it was to challenge me - sure I've played a long time and new content "vicious" created drew me, but I strongly thought that noone should feel that it's expected from them to do everything with the stats turned up to 11. Especially if they're struggling now!

I saw the sight of the forums flooded with strats needed to beat vicious and vicious discussions by the vets flash before my eyes and almost had a stroke. I wanted that effect documented even if it costs me reputation, because it's better if it costs ME reputation then if it costs the game reputation. I could've been more composed, but being genuine about it was the whole point. That's what the way of implementing vicious looked like to someone who's very, very, very annoyed at "vet mentality" that you find so appaling.

However, I'm 100% sure that the regular game is more challenging than was intended, in ways which weren't intended, which are detrimental and that the reasons for this are counterintuitive. And if I went on to explain it all over again for a 100th time, I'd be repeating myself, except I'd be repeating huge time consuming (to write and think up) textwalls of sincere analysis.
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2832
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Rambling

Postby xspeedballx on Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:29 pm

You know what Lujo. What you just wrote has been one of the most coherent and respectable wall of text you have posted about the "Vicious" badge and other recent discussions. As for feeling required. I get it. Agreed. Achievements should cover it(also achievements would be more visible to others any way to show off your brand of awesome). Trying to capture your feeling? I get it. I still think your reaction was terrible(in the expression of it) but I get it.

As for the regular game being more challenging than intended? Dislekcia seemed to more or less just agree with that statement as well. I am curious how UI, and information presentation improvements are going to improve that(I am genuinely curious, not skeptical). I wonder if a blog write up on that might be a good idea if it is still going to be a while before we can feel the effect. I CAN say things like showing actual HP left after attacks and actual hp/mana gains for potion had a huge effect on my play so I understand why that might improve a lot of the fears of newbies picking up the game.
xspeedballx
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:04 pm

Re: Rambling

Postby gjaustin on Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:32 pm

booooooze wrote:Maybe I'm just bitter my poison toy got taken away (I'll admit that it was probably too strong. But it sure was fun!). Maybe I'll find something new that's fun. But it seems like every time I do find something fun, it gets nerfed out of existence. Sure, some things are overpowered: Dracul briefly gave piety for every time you used lifesteal! That was awesome! And I can see why that was clearly a mistake. But some of the changes, especially the more recent ones, seem biased towards giving the vets new challenges at the expense of any chance of fun for the new players.


I undoubtedly count as a vet (though I haven't been as active lately, allowing Lujo to pass me in post count), yet sometimes I feel like "the other guy" since I always end up disagreeing with them on Gods and poison and whatever.

I'm pretty sure that most of my suggestions are either buffs or making alternative suggestions for less drastic versions of nerfs already suggested :)

Though I believe nerfing Binlor by making him start with PISORF was my idea. In my defense, it was intended as a buff for Wizards :)
gjaustin
 
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 am

Re: Rambling

Postby Lujo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:45 pm

xspeedballx wrote: I still think your reaction was terrible(in the expression of it) but I get it.


Ty, and I know - the horrible feeling of dread and just pure sadness was too strong. Things are/were moving in a great direcion, the devs are working on improvements which will help with many of the issues, it's all going swell, and I was putting in extra time in really turning every stone over looking for kinks and answers to questions that were not only bugging me but also many of the new posters during the entire beta.

And I hope we can put all this behind us and see what the future updates bring. I made an experimental vid with horrible sound that's still rendering - if you or anyone can endure through it, feedback on it will certanly help. And when the game itself can stand on it's own legs from early to post post late game I can make really good god tutorials, and all sorts of fun stuff for everyone.

(oh, and gjaustins pissiorf suggestion - as far as nerfs go that one backfired spectacularly :D Still, I like it :) )
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2832
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Rambling

Postby q 3 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:02 pm

For what it's worth, my own whining is usually directed at making the game easier (or at the very least, tweaking overly powerful features but compensating with buffs elsewhere). It's always a sad moment when some interesting, powerful strategy gets overly nerfed so that it's not merely "not overpowered" but not even much of a strategy anymore (I really miss Mana Leak). I even feel kind of guilty about the Absolution nerf, because while it would probably have happened sooner or later anyway, that stupid video didn't help. The point was to make other strategies better so that I wouldn't have to scum so much. :twisted:
q 3
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:36 pm

Re: Rambling

Postby Lujo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:09 pm

It's the old "give a man a fish or theach a man to fish" thing. My adjustment calls are often immidiately obvious in negative effect, while the long term benefits usualy aren't readily apparent. I actually learned this from the devs ^^

And the vid managed to not render a whole 5 minute chunk in the middle of it agan, which is why I scraped the first one :(
Will be up tommorrow I suppose...
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2832
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Rambling

Postby The Avatar on Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:01 pm

I like a challenge, and vicious mode has supplied it, but overall, I agree that the game should be easier.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4453
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: Rambling

Postby ChasGB on Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:36 pm

The Avatar wrote:I like a challenge, and vicious mode has supplied it, but overall, I agree that the game should be easier.


Thank you! From a newbie standpoint (I've been playing for 4 months now, so I'd say that I'm in newbie territory) one of the most disheartening things about DD is literally spending WEEKS beating your head against a puzzle that no matter what you do, you can't seem to crack (Thief Silver, BM Silver, Fighter Gold to name a few) and looking on the forums for ideas and guidance only to see vets post "Difficulty is fine" , "Totally doable, in fact Class X needs a nerf", and "I don't see what's so hard about it, I was wasted last night and I did it on my first try without using a single potion." A little bit of hyperbole on the last one, but that is how it often comes across, so you have no idea how refreshing it is to see a vet post something like this.

xspeedballx wrote: I am 100% positive there is more to this that I am just not understanding, because like I keep saying those generally considered broken strategies do not equal instant-wins for everyone, and quite possibly never will. Tri-sword prep is not a win for me... The statement that everyone uses tri-sword and wins may not be reflective of the larger player base.


FWIW, on hard and vicious, even prepping Tri-Sword (or anything for that matter) I lose 75% of the time. I know I'm not great or even very good at this game. I did hard GT (by the skin of my teeth and before the poison nerf, so yeah, I doubt I could do it now) and barely got the vampire unlock but that's about it. I figure there's probably a lot of players in my shoes. The Tri-Sword is not an automatic win.

q 3 wrote:I even feel kind of guilty about the Absolution nerf, because while it would probably have happened sooner or later anyway, that stupid video didn't help.


Here's the thing, I probably never would have ever completed Namtars or gotten the vampire had I not seen q_3's videos, and not because he was "demonstrating an exploit", but because his video genuinely had instructional value, far more than getting repeatedly kicked in the junk by the same dungeon ad nauseum without a good hint as to what a workable solution would be. If videos and annotated playthroughs (or the world record thread) are resulting in nerfs, then 1) people are going to stop making them and 2) the videos and playthroughs instantly become irrelevant. What are newbies to do then, besides log onto the forums and read about how overpowerd everything still is?

Sorry for my textwall, but from another newbie, it goes back to the OP and this:

God, that all sounds so negative. I don't want to be negative. It's a great game. I guess I'm saying: don't nerf everything until the game is no fun
Last edited by ChasGB on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ChasGB
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:51 pm
Location: Den of Danger

Re: Rambling

Postby Bloggorus on Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:50 pm

I agree that vicious should be either dropped or drastically nerfed before release, it was wildly borken when it was first introduced and it never stopped being broken.

I think many players have gotten used to the new 'normal' and forgotten that vicious was never meant to be a part of the game, but 'post-post-game' content, as (i think) disleksia put it.

I wouldnt like to see the game become 'easier', simply flatter in it's structure. More incentive to explore the dungeons in different ways can add replay value just as much as adding more and more tiers of difficulty. Easier to balance too.
Last edited by Bloggorus on Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Bloggorus
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Orstraleeea

Re: Rambling

Postby Bloggorus on Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:51 pm

Honestly, I think that until the devs remove Vicious completely, and we see unbalanced stuff in the cold light of HARD difficulty, I doubt many players could be convinced that things need nerfing.
User avatar
Bloggorus
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Orstraleeea

PreviousNext

Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 4 guests