Rambling

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Re: Rambling

Postby Lujo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:57 pm

Totaly agree - and as has been said - the difference in perspective comes from having a firm grip of the gods, first and foremost. If the game's not teaching this - then ofc the Trisword is not an autowin. And if they were more acessible at the right times, more easy to get into to the level that you need to understand them, then you'd know what the nerf talk is all about. I've been there, and I've been pissed off like you wouldn't believe - the moment I got good with the gods I was furious at the game for wasting an extraordinary ammount of my time which I kept stagnating instead of pointing me in the right direction firmly enough.

I'm very familiar with the feeling of trying your best and failing because you couldn't have had a clue about what you were really supposed to be doing. I almost got banned because of how indignated and mad I was because of this, several times. And things were much, much worse once upon a time - this playthrough was the first time I actually discovered some stuff which was doable a long while ago, just because of the puzzles... God knows what I'm still missing.

And I don't know how to say this, but if q3's video was actually that instructing and lifechanging to someone who's been playing for 4 months then there is a real problem - q3's been dead wrong about loads of stuff in there, just like any vet would be - noone's got too good of a perspective of the whole thing. There was factualy wrong "good advice" in there in about the same quantity as actual good advice - most people can only teach you about the few things they've managed to stumble upon even after playing for a year...

It's one of the reasons I dread making "instructional" vids rather than demonstrational ones - god knows what all I'm actually wrong about...
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Re: Rambling

Postby gjaustin on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:06 pm

Bloggorus wrote:I agree that vicious should be either dropped or drastically nerfed before release, it was wildly borken when it was first introduced and it never stopped being broken.

I think many players have gotten used to the new 'normal' and forgotten that vicious was never meant to be a part of the game, but 'post-post-game' content, as (i think) disleksia put it.

I wouldnt like to see the game become 'easier', simply flatter in it's structure. More incentive to explore the dungeons in different ways can add replay value just as much as adding more and more tiers of difficulty. Easier to balance too.


Uhh, Vicious dungeons haven't been like that for almost a year.

The stronger strategies may have been nerfed, but the Vicious dungeons themselves have been nerfed ever more to compensate. Naga City is downright trivial, compared to what it used to be. And it's still quite challenging!
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Re: Rambling

Postby Bloggorus on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:23 pm

Really? Would you walk into Naga city with a random class and race combo? With minimal preps or purist?

What I'm trying to say is that the new 'standard' of vicious has trained many players to think that playing the pre-prep metagame is more important than it should be. Having that pinnacle of Vicious to reach tends to draw attention away from a lot of other, secondary content to be had in the rest of the dungeons.

I'm the first one to admit that when I fire up the game, those Vicious dungeons with their miserly completion stats are the first thing I think about.

If i ever do play around with the PQI, random run or just play an easier dungeon for the hell of it, it's because I'm sick of spending hours tweaking and scumming and prepping to still get my ass handed to me by a Vicious dungeon.

Super difficult game play is not fun, DIFFERENT gameplay is fun, at least for me. But I can't tear my attention away from Vicious for long enough to try somehting different, because that';s human nature. We always want to conquer the highest mountain, not necessarily all of them.
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Re: Rambling

Postby ChasGB on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:29 pm

Lujo wrote: And I don't know how to say this, but if q3's video was actually that instructing and lifechanging to someone who's been playing for 4 months then there is a real problem - q3's been dead wrong about loads of stuff in there, just like any vet would be - noone's got too good of a perspective of the whole thing. Most people can only teach you about the few things they've managed to stumble upon even after playing for a year...


IIRC, didn't you say you learned a lot from his first playthrough vid as well? I never said it was lifechanging, just that it was more instructional than dying repeatedly and losing all of my gold. It wasn't instructional so much for what he said per se, but because the video conveyed detail that gets lost in verbiage and screenshots. For example, even watching the video on mute, I picked up a couple of things on techniques as simple as navigating blackspace. Conceptually, it's not hard; blinding flash of the obvious, don't waste blackspace. It was still informative to see it done more or less properly; ex: leaving the border tiles unrevealed, while second nature to someone that's been playing for a while isn't an obvious move to a newbie. WRT regenfighting, inventory management, it wasn't that the concepts were unknown or lifechanging, but the devil is often in the details (especially in DD!) when it comes to actually doing it. Heck, before that video I didn't even know that I could convert something without picking it up. For months I'd been converting stuff to clear an inventory space just so I could pick up and convert, because that feature, while no secret, wasn't made clear.

And you're right about the deities, the puzzles for the deities really didn't convey some of the finer points to me, like when to actually pop humility. Some of the boons are so situational and get used so infrequently that its easy to forget that they're there, like cleansing giving a consecrated strike to use against Namtars physical resist. Yep, I'd seen the text buried in the boon description, but it never really registered.

Lujo wrote: And things were much, much worse once upon a time.


I'll have to take your word for it. Remember, when the game gets released, for most of the people that buy it that frame of reference won't exist. Bloggorus made a point about Vicious being the post-post-game, but now it's part of the standard experience. I came in and it was the relative "Expert Difficulty" as it will be for many first-time Steam purchasers who play it for the first time.
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Re: Rambling

Postby Bloggorus on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:49 pm

paplaukes wrote:Lujo, here's an interesting read: Politics and the English Language. It changed the way I think about writing. There's a tl;dr at the bottom if need be.


Amazing read, that. First lecture of my linguistics class had that as required material.
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Re: Rambling

Postby gjaustin on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:54 pm

Bloggorus wrote:Really? Would you walk into Naga city with a random class and race combo? With minimal preps or purist?


All three? No. A poor class/race combo with preps or a good class/race combo with purist? Sure.

Naga City used to be OMG ARGH THE PAIN KILL ME NOW hard. Now it's just hard.

I remember when no one believed me when I claimed that you could beat Naga City with a Halfling Priest using a Tri-sword. Back when Tri-sword was just a straight +3 for a health potion, with no drawback!


ChaosGB wrote:I'll have to take your word for it. Remember, when the game gets released, for most of the people that buy it that frame of reference won't exist. Bloggorus made a point about Vicious being the post-post-game, but now it's part of the standard experience. I came in and it was the relative "Expert Difficulty" as it will be for many first-time Steam purchasers who play it for the first time.


And that's what it is now, so there's no need to worry.
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Re: Rambling

Postby Bloggorus on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:26 pm

@gjaustin: Maybe you're way better than me, but I consider myself pretty savvy about all the mechanics of the game and I can't get through it without perfect preps and strats. Maybe one in ten games with minimal preps i might get through.

This number is way too low, and will put off new players. When Steam players start flooding this and other forums people might realise exactly how low Vicious completion stats are.

Call me cynical, but I call a game that is too hard to complete failed game design.
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Re: Rambling

Postby The Avatar on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:57 pm

I disagree with dropping or significantly nerfing vicious before release. You contradict yourself on this too. The very fact that vicious is post-post-game content means that it is the only that is justified to be how difficult it is. Still, I definitely agree there should be more incentive to go through earlier dungeons.

The only thing that justifies a possible vicious nerf is the fact that they are the only place to get monster classes. Still, it would make both of us happy if they just moved those quests to other dungeons. Actually, vicious has been considerably nerfed since its original creation, and is doable now.

@ChasGB: Here's a Thief Silver video I made http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulOyMgGm2HQ.
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Re: Rambling

Postby Bloggorus on Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:15 am

The Avatar wrote:I disagree with dropping or significantly nerfing vicious before release. You contradict yourself on this too. The very fact that vicious is post-post-game content means that it is the only that is justified to be how difficult it is. Still, I definitely agree there should be more incentive to go through earlier dungeons.

The only thing that justifies a possible vicious nerf is the fact that they are the only place to get monster classes. Still, it would make both of us happy if they just moved those quests to other dungeons. Actually, vicious has been considerably nerfed since its original creation, and is doable now.

@ChasGB: Here's a Thief Silver video I made http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulOyMgGm2HQ.


Not quite a contradiction, more of an unexplained assumption; that Vicious is supposed to be considered by players as post-game content, but is not seen that way by players.

As you mentioned Avatar, putting those monster classes behind Vicious walls is incredibly frustrating.

Doing so completely circumvents the devs (assumed) intention to have Vicious as 'bonus' and optional content. Same goes for Vicious dungeon rewards. I have operated on the assumption that those rewards would eventually be moved the the 'real' game eventually, to put them within reach of mere mortals. They haven't, which is disappointing.

As long as Vicious has rewards at the end of it, they will be part of the game and not outside of it.

Given that very few players can even beat hard, it makes for an extremely disappointing and discouraging end of game for many players (including myself).
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Re: Rambling

Postby The Avatar on Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:35 am

Well, that is why I said earlier that they need to make the game easier. You have to beat hard to WIN THE GAME.

I disagree on having to move vicious rewards. They are more fun, play around content. An extra bonus for totally finishing the game and each branch.

Not quite a contradiction, more of an unexplained assumption; that Vicious is supposed to be considered by players as post-game content, but is not seen that way by players.


What I meant that is that it is extra challenge content (the devs call it post-post-game right?) so its difficulty is justified. Bonus challenge content wouldn't be fun unless it was challenging.
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