Rambling

All things Desktop Dungeons

Re: Rambling

Postby Bloggorus on Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:48 am

The Avatar wrote:Well, that is why I said earlier that they need to make the game easier. You have to beat hard to WIN THE GAME.


You need to be explicit about making things easier, because it can done in two ways:

You can give players the power and resources to beat Vicious in the same manner that they currently do with Hard, bringing the relative difficulty of the whole game DOWN in comparison.
OR
Nerf/turf Vicious and the preps that are required to beat it to bring the relative difficulty of the whole game UP in comparison.

The reason I am in favour of the latter is because the further you put the goal posts, the less significant the content at the start of the game becomes. Such a waste because it rocks.

I disagree on having to move vicious rewards. They are more fun, play around content. An extra bonus for totally finishing the game and each branch.


I have very few, and I have been trying for a LONG time. The few I have are a result of meticulously following guides and strats found on this forum.

It's pretty much a carrot on the end of stick i will never reach, and I lost the will long ago. I love this game, but when even a die hard fan can't be bothered there is something very wrong with the way it is structured.

What I meant that is that it is extra challenge content (the devs call it post-post-game right?) so its difficulty is justified. Bonus challenge content wouldn't be fun unless it was challenging.


The difficulty is justified, but at the moment the whole game is geared towards that final challenge.

I want something done to remove the focus off unlocking those monster classes and getting those items. Vicious was brought in as a beta testing tool, but I feel like it has become the game. I hope it is reverted before release.
User avatar
Bloggorus
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Orstraleeea

Re: Rambling

Postby The Avatar on Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:08 am

Bloggorus wrote:Vicious was brought in as a beta testing tool, but I feel like it has become the game. I hope it is reverted before release.


This is one of the most true quotes I've ever seen. Hard and Normal are the core of the game, not Vicious. Still, what would you propose to do? You can't remove vicious without leaving a good bit of unhappy veterans (who like the challenge Namtar provides). I suppose vicious could use a nerf, in which case the new vicious with vicious token would be more like the current vicious. Probably still a little harder.

Actually, on the topic of the vicious token, I quite dislike it. The fact that you beat the slime pits to get it gears you into vicious faster than you should, if ever. I think it would be better if it was made a reward for beating the four vicious dungeons. In fact, I would not make it be a quest if that was done. I would make it a vague note on the Kingdom Advisor after you've beaten the game and completed all other quests. It should say something like "A special reward will be provided for those who can defeat all dungeons and save your Kingdom forever.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4453
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: Rambling

Postby booooooze on Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:25 am

Thanks for reading and responding, all.

Feel like I should respond a bit:

Lujo wrote:
And how am I trying to dumb things down, exactly?


Oh, that's just me being harsh. But look at your signature: just harping on the ol' trisword (which I'll get to). First it was, I don't know, resist stacking was the first one I remember. Then Binlor. Then Martyr Wraps. Then poison. Now Rogues and triswords (and I'm sure I'm missing many in between). I'm not saying you want everything dumbed down, just equal. And Swift Hands just jumped to mind as one of the last remaining "super powers" (who else can/bothers to kill high level AAs, among other things). True, I don't understand what you're getting at, most of the time. But it was all largely an aside...


paplaukes wrote:
Boooooze, were you trying to say that an extra badge to get breaks your completion and thus feels wrong? Especially since it's so hard to get. Just curious.


Nah. I am in favor of the Vicious token, maybe the vets will be satisfied with their shiny new toy and stop taking away mine. :lol: I only threw it in a) to be honest, as a not-so-subtle brag, b) to give some idea of just how much time I've spent playing the game. I'm sure I could do VHoS with the vicious token if I was determined to do so.


dislekcia wrote:
Heard, understood, acknowledged!


Cool. Glad to hear it. Again, it's a great game, and one I've kept coming back to many times over the past year and a half.


xspeedballx wrote:
Tri-sword prep is not a win for me. Honestly I am not sure I win more prepping or not.


Glad to hear that, too. I don't usually take it.


@everyone else: thanks for reading, I may have been a bit harsh on ya'll, but I know you mean well.
booooooze
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:36 am

Re: Rambling

Postby Bloggorus on Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:03 am

Still, what would you propose to do? You can't remove vicious without leaving a good bit of unhappy veterans (who like the challenge Namtar provides)


That's a big question.

I'm not proposing they remove vicious dungeons completely, just distance them from the main game. BY removing the HUGE incentives to try and finish vicious dungeons, players will have the freedom to 'finish' the game, then wander off to explore any number of avenues they might otherwise ignore with those Vicious dungeons and their presents still to find.

It's would also be terrible a waste because Vicious dungeons contain some of the most varied and interesting dungeons int he game, and removing them completely would throw all that work and fun down the drain.

Even so, I think their difficulty could still be turned down.

I also think that if players lost Vicious as an option, and were forced to look elsewhere for amusement, they would begin to see some of the more OP elements in a new light.

A lot of the problem is that many features, items and game play elements that people consider indispensable were implemented with Vicious in place, and lots of players were very glad to have them in other to tackle those Vicious dungeons. I think many player's opinions on preps have been warped by their experience with Vicious, to the point where they just aren't objective any more.

Just make the Vicious rewards rewards for fully completing the four directions or having all badges or something.

I'd say that's just a pretty hefty 'challenge', but one that is much more attainable for patient noobs, less elitist and uses the content that already exists in the game but nobody plays because they are all dying to Namtar.
User avatar
Bloggorus
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Orstraleeea

Re: Rambling

Postby The Avatar on Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:29 am

Fully completing any direction would directly involve beating the vicious dungeons. The other problem is that they are directly thematically centered as something you get for killing the superboss.

What do you think of making the vicious token a reward for beating every vicious dungeon. That way there is a reward, if ever so little, for completing everything.
JakshdfFiha$#jaigb532i97fbnPKASN*@)sdjbau9a0)f+,Ahghs*hr)sk_sabdh^ujsbUA3{mvio/~dgffdsT^klndf,#ikon%(d

I speak chaos.
User avatar
The Avatar
 
Posts: 4453
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Demonic Library

Re: Rambling

Postby Bloggorus on Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:57 am

The Avatar wrote:Fully completing any direction would directly involve beating the vicious dungeons. The other problem is that they are directly thematically centered as something you get for killing the superboss.



For this to work, and for vicious to be taken out of the completion equation like we are talking about, they would have to lose their associations as the 'last' dungeon for each direction.

I would even propose taking them off the regular dungeon map completely and giving them their own realm, just to dissociate them further.

As for the associations with a superboss, I think they could be a part of the lore just like a lot of things. Imagine;

You might finish all of one direction receive Namtar's thingo (forgot name) as a reward. Cool item!

Then later you finally get to Vicious and encounter this crazy Namtar guy who's super tough. Wow, I have an item named after him!

So the current vicious rewards would be for finishing everying completely apart from Vicious.

What do you think of making the vicious token a reward for beating every vicious dungeon. That way there is a reward, if ever so little, for completing everything.


The Vicious token should definitely be an item received after defeating Hard GT and 'finishing' the game. It would signal the beginning of postgame the same way New Game + does.

Much cleaner than current setup. I assume the only reason they did it as a standard unlockable was because everyone would have to start a new profile to get it.
User avatar
Bloggorus
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Orstraleeea

Re: Rambling

Postby Bloggorus on Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:00 am

Also, giving players a chance to unlock monster classes would be nice too. Still haven't got gorgon after all this time.
User avatar
Bloggorus
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Orstraleeea

Re: Rambling

Postby Blovski on Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:06 am

Thank you! From a newbie standpoint (I've been playing for 4 months now, so I'd say that I'm in newbie territory) one of the most disheartening things about DD is literally spending WEEKS beating your head against a puzzle that no matter what you do, you can't seem to crack (Thief Silver, BM Silver, Fighter Gold to name a few) and looking on the forums for ideas and guidance only to see vets post "Difficulty is fine" , "Totally doable, in fact Class X needs a nerf", and "I don't see what's so hard about it, I was wasted last night and I did it on my first try without using a single potion." A little bit of hyperbole on the last one, but that is how it often comes across, so you have no idea how refreshing it is to see a vet post something like this.


The class challenges are frequently out of line, I think. In many cases they're harder, or at least, less reliably doable than vicious, and tend to have a very mazy layout which requires restarts even if you play fine. Personally I'd like to see them at least have a more forgiving layout, given they're gating some really neat items and the silvers gave me as a vet a lot of trouble and I'm not even bothering with a lot of the golds.

I think in general when we're talking about the difficulty of the game in the forums, we're not thinking of the class challenges, and frequently we're not really thinking about Purist play either.

I agree that vicious should be either dropped or drastically nerfed before release, it was wildly borken when it was first introduced and it never stopped being broken.
I think many players have gotten used to the new 'normal' and forgotten that vicious was never meant to be a part of the game, but 'post-post-game' content, as (i think) disleksia put it.
I wouldnt like to see the game become 'easier', simply flatter in it's structure. More incentive to explore the dungeons in different ways can add replay value just as much as adding more and more tiers of difficulty. Easier to balance too.


Vicious really isn't broken atm, except in a couple of the interactions with deities being off. I mean, I enjoyed the hell out of going through the viciouses the first time (STILL haven't done Namtar), and at that point they were pretty much all harder than they are now. Soo... I don't get it. Further nerfing the vicious dungeons at this point would just make them redundant. Cutting them would be daft. They don't really gate anything *essential* and for me were/are a real satisfying endgame with some worthwhile rewards, and at least three of them are reliably beatable but interesting with a number of strategies.

Now I'd say that making the monster classes available for a good % of directional completion (say 50% overall, which is a lot of runs, but if you don't want to beat the vicious dungeons that'd make it accessible) or vicious wins would be a nice alternative.

Really? Would you walk into Naga city with a random class and race combo? With minimal preps or purist?


Mostly. I'd probably take a god topside if I had random class/race. Demonic Library would be more of a push.

Honestly, I think that until the devs remove Vicious completely, and we see unbalanced stuff in the cold light of HARD difficulty, I doubt many players could be convinced that things need nerfing.


I think the reason the talk about balance is so skewed around Vicious dungeons atm is that the vet community have generally gotten good enough that they can beat a hard dungeon with basically anything with a ton of stuff to spare. I'm maybe the worst and probably the most arithmetically lazy player of the vets on here but I have this perspective issue now. Consequently, above-the-curve things tend to be obscured by vet skill at lower difficulty. However, it's usually still above-the-curve in a way that discourages interesting play, which is always a shame.

I'd like more incentive to do odd stuff in the hard dungeons.

---

Vicious token post hard-GT is a really smart idea - though I like the idea of keeping in the slime pits quest for something else. I'm having fun on vicious low-end dungeons atm but agree that level of super-challenge should probably not be haunting my completion %s.
Blovski
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:21 pm

Re: Rambling

Postby q 3 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:23 am

What if all the current "vicious" dungeons were reduced in stats to "hard" dungeons, and then just leave all the really nasty stuff for the Vicious Token? It could be like the glasses in They Live, showing you the "true" and far more evil version of the kingdom. :twisted:
q 3
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:36 pm

Re: Rambling

Postby FDru on Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:47 am

Bloggorus wrote:I have very few, and I have been trying for a LONG time. The few I have are a result of meticulously following guides and strats found on this forum.

It's pretty much a carrot on the end of stick i will never reach, and I lost the will long ago. I love this game, but when even a die hard fan can't be bothered there is something very wrong with the way it is structured.


I've been playing since the game was announced, and finally got around to unlocking Gorgon a few weeks ago. I then beat Demonic Library for the first time shortly after (okay, the second time but the first was back when Avatar spawned plants or something, and I restarted since then). The point being that, yeah, Vicious content is still very daunting even for some of us who have been around forever (I hesitate to call myself a "vet", and realize I have much room for improvement but still consider myself a markedly above-average player).

Though I don't have a problem with Vicious difficulty, I wish it weren't a gate to unlocking monster classes. Those fancy specialty items are nice rewards and I think they should stay, because at the very least anyone should be able to request a specific strategy to beat each Vicious once and pick them up and they do, in fact, feel rewarding.
User avatar
FDru
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:41 am

PreviousNext

Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 2 guests