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QCF Design Community • View topic - The horse is not quite dead: Locker space and fun


The horse is not quite dead: Locker space and fun

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Re: The horse is not quite dead: Locker space and fun

Postby Lujo on Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:12 pm

Not to mention not being a hardcase and openly dismissive about people who, if you look carefully enough, are doing you a favour. We're on your side to the point that well established gods mostly have less devout followers than your game...

What sidestepper, and the rest of us, are saying is true, and if you think about it with an open mind you will come to realize this. It's also pretty mild, and some of it can be adressed in less drastic ways. But if you dismiss people who are willing to do the insane and do what we've been doing for a year and give us a very uninformed "reasons why you suck" speech - you put yourself into a position where once you realize that we are in fact pretty fair, benevolent and right about what we are saying, and do something about it it's gonna look like "we won". And we aren't trying to "win" anything and it's not about us not understanding the logic behind the original design decision, it's us, the most masochistic and inventive of us, trying to tell you that it's not working as intended.

I'm sure you are familiar with the story of the genious architec who designed a neighbourhood with green areas, but didn't make any pathways. He waited for a few months for people to form natural paths and then paved them, and everyone was happy. I'm not asking you to give us as much weight as the award winning guy, but I can guarantee that a decent compromise would be very beneficial to your game. I don't care if you openly acknowledge when I'm right about something - I read it off changelogs. This is one such thing - the problem is there, it's a big one, and it's there wheter we talk about it, not talk about it or even if you acknowledge it or not. Except if you don't even acknowledge it it's still going to be there, and it's hurting your game more than it's hurting anything else.

EDIT: Don't reply to this! Sleep on it, PM people in private if you don't understand us, heck, if it's not inappropriate - I suggest a skype conference with no guarantees on your part, but a chance to explain the whole deal without textwalls. I'd offer to come to south africa so you can all punch me in the face first if it ment you'd give what were saying a chance afterwards. Noone's asking for any credit for anything, and noone's trying to take anything from you. Please make an effort to understand this at least.

EDI2: And the skype suggestion is legit - because I don't want to make any more "this is just wrong" vids for you tube. I want to promte this thing, not otherwise, and you guys hearing about stuff is all that really matters.
I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
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Re: The horse is not quite dead: Locker space and fun

Postby xspeedballx on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:57 pm

As a thought, maybe a compromise is allowing the ability to pay 10x shop prices to get an item without having to go into dungeons to find it. Once found at least once you can go commission your tinker to scum for it and you now have it available in your backpack.
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Re: The horse is not quite dead: Locker space and fun

Postby q 3 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:06 pm

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Re: The horse is not quite dead: Locker space and fun

Postby Lujo on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:14 pm

I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
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Re: The horse is not quite dead: Locker space and fun

Postby The Avatar on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:25 pm

Devs, there was no need to insult Sidestepper. He's an incredibly dedicated fan, and all he wants is for this game to do as well as possible. Then you compared him to a pirate for no reason. Honestly, his contributions to the game have been exceedingly valuable.
We made an expansion and it is awesome. Really, you should check it out, especially if you're looking for some extra challenge.

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Re: The horse is not quite dead: Locker space and fun

Postby Blovski on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:45 pm

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Re: The horse is not quite dead: Locker space and fun

Postby Abraxas on Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:59 pm

I'd just like to drop by and point out a few things I think are worth mentioning.

While Dislekcia's comparison to piracy was unfit (in that it missed the context and reasoning behind Sidestepper's hacking), I think it's pretty safe to assume that he did not at all mean to compare Sidestepper to a thief or attack him in any way. The effect of piracy he mentioned is real, and if you consider that he ignored/missed the fact that Sidestepper did experience standard locker functionality before resorting to hacking, then the comparison is very much relevant.
That is to say, Dislekcia's comment was misplaced in that regard, but at the same time I think Sidestepper misinterpreted the intentions behind it.

Now, as for the issue itself, I think I understand in part where the devs are coming from with their stubbornness. When designing games you have to consider that sometimes players don't really know/understand what they want and they often lack knowledge of the big picture and design intentions behind game elements, so sometimes you have to be stubborn about how things are handled.
However, in this particular case, after having read what the community has said, and after deriving as much as I could of the design intentions from Dislekcia's posts on the subject, I think it sounds like there's a dissonance between how the devs think players are experiencing locker limitations, and how the players are actually experiencing them.
At the very least, that seems to be the case for the more advanced players. I wouldn't doubt that the locker is working as intended (and in a very positive way) for the less vocal majority of the playerbase, but for those who stick around for the late-game content, I'd say there have been enough comments on how it's an outright unfun and detracting mechanic to warrant giving them the benefit of the doubt.

To summarize,
Sidestepper: You probably misjudged Dislekcia's tone and intentions, don't be so mad at him.
Dislekcia: Changes to the locker system is something the vets have been clamoring for for quite a while. I do realize you gave us backpacks to try and answer that, but I think everyone made it pretty clear that didn't change much. I really do think this is a case where you should consider reevaluating what all this player feedback means.
That which is not dead may eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die.
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Re: The horse is not quite dead: Locker space and fun

Postby sitnaltax on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:33 am

Let the record show that in this thread, for the first time ever that I can remember, I agree with pretty much everything Lujo has to say.
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Re: The horse is not quite dead: Locker space and fun

Postby The Avatar on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:58 am

@Abraxis: Very good points. I hope Sidestepper doesn't stop posting though. His contributions are always very valuable, and it would be a shame for him to leave because of a large misunderstanding.
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Re: The horse is not quite dead: Locker space and fun

Postby Sidestepper on Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:43 am

Ah, what a mess.

I typed my response to dislecksia off the cuff. I did this because I wanted it to be a genuine response rather than a calculated answer. I think that was the proper course of action, but the result was that some of my wordings were clumsy.

I'm not mad at dislecksia. I was for about five minutes, but I'm over it. If I were to met him in real life, I'd buy him a beer. He helped create one of my favorite games of all time, and that's pretty cool.

That being said, getting that kind of response has a chilling effect on feedback. I get that he wasn't literally calling me a thief and I get that from the context that he might have had cause to assume that I never legitimately played the game, but, I am also a year-long veteran and having my experiences sneeringly dismissed like that without any benefit of the doubt ruffled my feathers. I'm not some random script kiddie, and you should know that by now. It doesn't help that both of his posts in this thread were reactions to the thread, rather than responses to it. No one asked for a Real Money Auction House, and no one asked for an all items for free system, and so his posts felt more like angry venting rather than a real engagement. But mostly, the threat to spitefully do the exact opposite of what the player feedback is suggesting seriously makes me want to not give any more feedback. The message it sends is "We are not interested in feedback and will punish you if we get it."

Hey, I get that development is a stressful thing, and sometimes player feedback can feel like an attempt to appropriate your intellectual property, but for real, that is not what is going on here. Like I said several times in the OP, I (and several others, as it turned out) I am trying to report a design issue that is just not working out the way it was probably intended to. You are free to take it or leave it, but please don't shoot the messenger.

So that is that, and I hope that discussion turns back to the game itself rather than metaforum drama.
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