Design post on the blog!

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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby FDru on Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:24 am

Pretty sure I did the majority of my runs Purist during my initial playthrough because I had to save money for bank upgrades and class building upgrades. So put me in with the "locker space didn't effect me" crowd.

That said, after I unlocked the important things locker space started to be an issue. Rather, relockering things became annoying so I basically stopped doing it unless I really needed a certain item (for testing bugs and such, like the Orb of Zot on CO issue).

Nowadays, what keeps me playing is... I don't even know. I have every item, class, dungeon and building unlocked and the only things I can do now is grind for ridiculously expensive bank upgrades and a 100,000 gold locker slot. What I think the game might be in need of is some actual completion rewards, because it feels like "completion for the sake of completion" at this point, and the Alpha had tangible and useful rewards for completion which was a much better situation IMO.

EDIT: because I forgot to mention that certain balance issues are still bothering me. When I can finish Slime Pits with an Elf Monk after getting a bad roll on the "LEMMISI?" glyph and revealing the entire map at level 4, simply because I had enough knowledge to prep an extremely broken item (Trisword) and then last-minute worship GG for 2 hits of Cleansing, I have to wonder WTF the devs are doing because balance can't possibly be in a good place when that's doable.
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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby Blovski on Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:35 am

[quote=Dislecksia]@Blovski: Unfortunately those suggestions still fall foul of the slippery slope... Why only 5-6 items? Why can't you get all of them? The players who want access to more items like this aren't going to want just 6 of them, they want to be able to pick up any and all items whenever, anything else is just wasting time! Why is it so expensive? The alternative only takes 1 run, so it should cost 1 run's worth of gold.[/quote]

Well, I was figuring that after 6 items or so it'd get prohibitively expensive with stacking or multiplying costs to get more rather than setting a hard cap for permabought items soo didn't see that being a problem (I mean, if Avatar or Lujo or someone wants to permabuy EVERY item in the game and hoards 200,000 gold or whatever to do it, who cares? if the 6th one has cost a cumulative 21,000 gold (stacking 1,000+1,000etc) or 31,000 (multiplicative 1,000x2 etc) gold most people will stop by then). I think people would see the gold cost as paying to avoid doing two or three runs to find the item. I dunno if that argument would *never* come up but I think people would find it less frustrating to play around with than what there is at the moment.

I see what you guys mean in that there's probably not going to be a solution that makes everyone happy forever and if it takes a ton of extra work y'know, 'snot too much of a problem for most players. I'm pretty sure that the game would be more fun for me if some sort of permabuy got brought in. It's not too big a deal.

@Speedball, relockering an item is a thing *anyone* who has the thought 'Oh I'll try prepping this item with this class but my slots are full of things I like and don't want to have to search for in-dungeon later once the novelty's worn off' has. I'm not convinced that the 'average' player wouldn't have that thought. It might be less of a problem now so many items are gated behind silver dungeons that are more or less vicious-difficulty.

If you're not fussing with preps, or only using them for power reasons rather than for interesting strategies, it won't be a problem for you.
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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby Lujo on Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:39 am

FDru wrote:Pretty sure I did the majority of my runs Purist during my initial playthrough because I had to save money for bank upgrades and class building upgrades. So put me in with the "locker space didn't effect me" crowd.


And if the "money to relocker" thing was in there, for the entire game, neither you nor speedball would feel the need to use it until the gold started rolling in. Then when it did/does, all that completion would be much more appealing and you'd be able to try different stuff in different venues every/every other run, and never ever scum for anything. And what Blovski said, ofc.

Anyway, if I ever decide to hack this game, I'll hack a button which lockers me an item and freezes my game for half an hour. Anyone in need of proof that this makes sense and moral reassurance that what we were trying to tell the devs - make a black jpeg with the white caption "Scumming..." and sit there looking at it for 10-20-30 minutes, or "Relockering..." and do the same for an hour in case of vicious stuff. Every so often make a break to load up on preps and suicide, to account for the screwup possibility in Naga City. That's what the game is asking us to do to relocker stuff, and it's magnifying allready present problems, etc, etc. Now load up that same jpeg, set an alarm clock to 30 mins, and go about your life, come back after the 30 minutes and take the jpeg away. After you're done think about which half hour had comparatively more sense.

Otherwise - whole thing over, or out of anyone's hands. Friday's nearby. Do we have actual feedback?

@Edit: And if the game rewarded completion with letting you permabuy different ranks of items X% for basic, X% for quest, X% for elite, X% for vicious, you'd be able to experiment reliably with more and more stuff, and end up at a 100% completion still with stuff to explore... But again, if this could be explained, it would've been explained a while ago, firday, feedback, all that...
Last edited by Lujo on Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby gjaustin on Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:52 am

dislekcia wrote:Not frustrated, no. We're doing this design out in the open, it's just that the way we talk about it is quite different to how players experience it. That's always going to happen...

@Blovski: Unfortunately those suggestions still fall foul of the slippery slope... Why only 5-6 items? Why can't you get all of them? The players who want access to more items like this aren't going to want just 6 of them, they want to be able to pick up any and all items whenever, anything else is just wasting time! Why is it so expensive? The alternative only takes 1 run, so it should cost 1 run's worth of gold.

There isn't a way to satisfy this need that doesn't do damage to basic elements of gameplay that are the hooks that keep people playing. Sorry.


I've mentioned this in another thread, but the phrase "hooks that keep people playing" terrifies me.

It makes me think of design decisions that would fit well in Farmville or World of Warcraft in an attempt to artificially inflate playtime, and therefore revenue.

It makes me wonder if the iOS version of Desktop Dungeons will be freemium, where you can buy gold and extra locker slots for real money...
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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby Lujo on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:00 am

gjaustin wrote:It makes me think of design decisions that would fit well in Farmville or World of Warcraft in an attempt to artificially inflate playtime, and therefore revenue.

It makes me wonder if the iOS version of Desktop Dungeons will be freemium, where you can buy gold and extra locker slots for real money...


Haven't thought of that angle, but that's the only way this whole mess actualy makes sense. Good god... I'm not sure who thought the devs design, but as far as overdoing completely pointless time requirements inflation and misunderstanding why people play their game - they've really seem to be taking their cues from that school of thought. :( There's quite a bit of realpolitick vs studies thing going on here. Game's bloated with potential runs, forcing people to do more than their willing, especially after having done all the questlines is really a wrong and unecessary move. This thing doesn't need any of those kind of gimmicks - the devs actually managed the rare impossible feat of making a game that has both the content and addictivity, it's doesn't have to be a skinnerbox at all, or at least nearly as much as they seem to think... Unless they're looking to cash in on it, but in that case they could've told us...

But that's silly, because they're putting way more effort into it then they'd need to cash in on it. Which makes all the gimmicks and assumptions about their necessity so problematic.

But, err, let's stop this?
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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby Waldo0 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:32 am

Is this a post to demand something for game?

Please make a replay system!!!

I have seen some funny things(really lucky!!!! or Hey Comp!! fxxx kidding me??!!) in my game. I really want to record that funny game or that epic run.

I also have seen some veteran players cleared really really hard quests(like double vicious run) as some creative ways what I couldn't think or I haven't used.

This system will be good for beginner and competitor who like to compete(we can have a competition).

There are some ideas for this system.

(Sorry about these poor English expressions)

-Normally the replay files are saved in the player's computer.
-The replay file can be saved after a game is finished(both victory or not)
-A building is used for this replay system interface in the castle.(To delete or import or export the replay files)
-The concept of the replay files are heroic novels or history books.(the title is given by the player)
-Some brief information for the replay files(title, map, date, player name, race/class)
-The file can be easily shared with friends or forum(export file and upload it)
or (the replay file could be sent to the replay server).
-The replay display is almost same with playing game display.
-You can watch one movement with pressing an arrow.
-There is a log or mark what the player did(using a health potion or fire ball glyph or buying trisword).

I know you guys update this game weekly and this is not easy thing.

I'm really appreciate it. :)
*F+Click* "WTF? Oh.. the monster had a 'Retaliate: Fireball'...." -2012 Waldo0
"I cleared this game!!!" -2013 Waldo0
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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby ChasGB on Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:36 am

Stupid question: once you've unlocked a vicious reward, does it enter the shop pool (Elite/quest items or otherwise)?

I'd be more willing to "give up" the locker spots that my NW and DS currently occupy if I knew for sure that I could get them back in a hard dungeon without having to face the ordeal of beating a vicious dungeons again. I felt like getting them the first time was more luck than skill.
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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby FDru on Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:41 am

ChasGB wrote:Stupid question: once you've unlocked a vicious reward, does it enter the shop pool (Elite/quest items or otherwise)?


No. This is why we tend to keep Vicious rewards permanently lockered.

Also, I understand how some runs can feel like luck, but if you can beat a Vicious there was no luck involved.
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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby ChasGB on Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:04 am

FDru wrote:No. This is why we tend to keep Vicious rewards permanently lockered.

Also, I understand how some runs can feel like luck, but if you can beat a Vicious there was no luck involved.


Thanks! Good thing I didn't unlocker them then! Leads me to my second stupid question, which is why not make those items part of the shop pool? All the other reward items work that way. It would make "reclaiming" them less onerous and time consuming, as well as free up locker spots held by the "I don't want to grind this again" sentiment. Because its the same mechanic as how other items are unlocked there's no slippery slope. Seems like win-win to me.
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Re: Design post on the blog!

Postby dislekcia on Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:24 am

gjaustin wrote:I've mentioned this in another thread, but the phrase "hooks that keep people playing" terrifies me.

It makes me think of design decisions that would fit well in Farmville or World of Warcraft in an attempt to artificially inflate playtime, and therefore revenue.

It makes me wonder if the iOS version of Desktop Dungeons will be freemium, where you can buy gold and extra locker slots for real money...


Every game has hooks... If you're playing it repeatedly, then it's hooked you. We're not talking cynical, Skinnerian-style compulsion loops and exploiting those for mega cash monies here (in fact we find that sort of game design an extremely shitty thing to do to other people) but it's definitely a continuum.

We have joked about things like instant win buttons or "buy any item for $1" functionality, but those remain jokes. If we wanted to nickel and dime people to death, we'd be doing it already instead of selling a game with this much play time and content for an up-front fee. Not that there aren't ways to do IAP/freemium that isn't completely predatory, just look at LoL or Leap Day, but that's a completely different conversation ;)

Waldo0 wrote:Is this a post to demand something for game?

Please make a replay system!!!


A replay system would be nice, yes. Maybe we'll be able to make something happen in that vein, but it will by necessity have to be the last thing we do in the game - everything will have to be completely nailed down, otherwise any changes will multiply work. Not saying we'll manage to make one, but we agree that it would be a neat thing to have :)
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