Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

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Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

Postby berpdreyfuss on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:04 pm

The computer upgrade was a very good thing, the video is so much better without the lag! (Might be a good idea to redo the tutorials in that quality?)

And wow, already 123 parts! Would you mind adding a short description of the run again? I don't watch all of them and skip some because I haven't beaten all the dungeons yet, so it would be nice to easily see what's going on in the video.

Thanks for the videos and keep up the good work! (I still think the audio commentary by Avatar might be worth pursuing...)
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Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

Postby JayPlaysIndieGames on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:28 pm

Yeah the upgrade is pretty amazing for me. My previous CPU was build on a $150 dollar budget with used parts. I am surprised it managed at all really. The new PC can run brand new games at highest settings and keep 60fps so it is a huge change for me.

I will probably redo the tutorials when the game is actually released, as for labeling them. Honestly the reason I haven't been is that I had so much pre-recorded that I didn't know what was what when I was uploading. Mainly because of all the exams I have going on.

Now that everything is caught up I will try to remember to label in the descriptions again. If AVatar want to do audio commentary he is welcome to :)

Anyway in the near future my runs are mainly going to be either VGT attempts, unlikely heroes, or silver challenges.
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Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

Postby berpdreyfuss on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:36 pm

Yes, redoing the tutorials with the release is a good idea. Looking forward to the challenges!
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Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

Postby TheSchachter on Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:24 pm

NOTE: This turned out a billion times longer than I thought. I don't blame you if you don't read it, Jay! :P (I don't regret it though, I had fun)


Hey Jay! I'm taking a break from attempting the second Triple Quest (that thing is a MONSTER) by watching one of your videos, and since Avatar is busy, I figured I could perhaps leave some comments which will hopefully be useful to you. Naturally, for anything I say that Avatar disagrees with, listen to him! He's far better than I am :P Still, I know there are at least a few things I say that can help you :)

Part 129 - Havendale Bridge with a Gnome Priest (PQI, Purist)

-So! Havendale Bridge is a fun dungeon. Gnome Priest PQI always feels a bit frustrating since you could'Ve been a halfling, but it's not all bad! The boss native to Havendale is undead, so that's a big bonus for the priest. And hopefully you can fireball the other boss using your ridiculous amount of mana potions...

-Quick early note: When you used Wonnafyt at the beginnig, you blocked a single square of exploration with the Goblin you summoned (and later with a Bandit (and an imp)). Single squares like that can be *very* useful for topping off a kill, so try to avoid that. (Sometimes it's hard to avoid, especially on a tighter map like this, and I usually forget too, so it's not the end of the world in a Hard dungeon, but it *is* suboptimal... just something to keep and mind)

-Other note: Try not to pick up a glyph unless you’re about to immediately use it. In this case, IMAWALL, which you did not use once! It’s not so bad here since you’re a gnome who already has a mana potion in your inventory, so you could convert it without trouble (though that would make it unavailable later, and you want to avoid cutting options). If you were a Goblin, it could be a huge waste (though IMAWALL + Goblins is pretty ridiculous).

-(3:30) "You're the obvious target" Nope. Level 2 Goblins with their higher damage, without any supporting glyphs are rarely good targets for tier 1 classes (Wizards excepted, since they start with Burndayraz... but then Wizards are way stronger than the other tier 1 classes in most cases). Goats are almost always better targets since they have weaker stats, even for casters. Anyway at this point I think paying the troll was your only valid choice. It’s what I do most of the time on this map anyway, since straight up fighting the troll costs a lot of resources, and the boss isn’t so hard that I feel the need to have a lot of items.

-(3:58)Joining Mystera like that, with so little info on what you’re up against and without any access to a direct damage glyph is questionable (you’ve obviously forgotten that the Havendale boss has magic resist, but even then, what if your other boss is The Iron Man? You wouldn’t have enough Piety for the Weakenings needed to make that work, given how much of the map has been explored. She still works as a piety farm, though, so eh). It turned out to be a good idea, of course, made easier by the fact that there were few magic attack monsters here and Gnomes are excellent Mystera worshipers in general, so let’s talk about your mistake at this point: you joined her religion, and then immediately explored on full mana. You should *Never* waste exploration with full mana while worshiping her. Keep casting Wonafyt, even if you’ve already slowed the all possible monsters. More Piety! (Of course, later on with fewer blackspace left this isn’t as clear cut, but early on, follow that rule!

- (4:20) Take more time when reading the item descriptions! That alchemist scroll costs 3 gold per use, and you’re already down 20... Sure, health stacking can be good, especially with those 100% health potions, but you weren’t really in a position to exploit that (sacrificing potions in your situation is also bad). Besides, you usually want some form of damage reduction (resistances) to really leverage high health...

-(4:40)I’m guessing you didn’t recognize the subdungeon you entered? Because you could’ve really used the Pissorf glyph it gives you, it would’ve saved exploration in the long run. You were really in need of a glyph, especially a damaging one...

-(4:50)Yup, druids are nice, easy targets, and your Priestly HP makes it even easier for you to tank the hits. They’re the enemies of choice in, say, Dragon Isles. Note, however, that you really should’ve killed it earlier (around 3:54). If you’re strong enough to take down its death protection (which you were when you first found it), you can do that, explore, then kill it. Can be costly, but in your case would’ve been better. Also, before killing it you should’ve used IMAWALL on the slowed Lvl1 Druid (since you waste the slow by taking out the Death Protection anyway later on, you might as well get 1 bonus XP for slowing him. Also, you’d used up so much exploration already, the IMAWALL bonus would’ve been nice).

- (5:00)The second boss is Jörmungandr! This is good news. Since he has relatively low HP and you’re already worshipping Mystera, a fairly clear strategy draws itself up: Use the amazing mana-spiking potential of a Mystera Gnome (Refreshment gives you Mana Potions!) to kill Jörmungandr at level 7 into 8 (or 6 into 7, depending), then take on the Zombie boss at the highest level possible (setting up another mid-fight level up of course) to really profit from your boosted damage against undead + health potions.

-(5:15) Some might disagree, but I think you were justified in killing that popcorn to reach level two; you’d already used up so much exploration, so I think it was okay. Especially as a priest, regenerating you want to save your potions for the boss, and a ding saves a ton of resources if it lets you take on another monster right away. Using a potion there would’ve been a waste, you only had one gold!

-(5:30)More exploration at full mana... you’re level two now, you should use Wonafyt again!

-(5:56)Too bad you have so little gold here, the Elven Boots + Mystera + Gnome + magic resist would’ve been lovely... Mind you, you wouldn’t have been able to afford them even if you hadn’t bought the Alchemist’s scroll, so whatever.

-(6:27) When you picked up Halpmeh (nice find!), you said “Let’s finish healing, then look at this dude (level 3 Snake). Wrong order! If you’d looked at him first and done some quick math, you would’ve known you could’ve killed him without exploring further, which would’ve healed you with a Ding. Would have saved you some extra blackspace. Also, you only needed to use Halpmeh once there, which is insignificant because of the ding in this case but would’ve been a waste in another situation. Just things to keep in mind!

-“Looks like I won’t be using the Alchemist’s scroll I purchased... that’s okay!” Tsk Tsk... not a good attitude for self improvement! :P (Do I take this game too seriously? Maybe... XD)

-Okay, so let’s talk about that level 6 Goblin you were regen-fighting at level 4. That’s usually a losing proposition. For Regen-Fighting you usually want high damage and/or high resists (preferably both of course). You had none of those things, and the Goblin has high damage. That being said, there were three opportunities that I spotted in this video where you could’ve killed it, and you didn’t:


-At 9:28, the Goblin had 1 hp left and a stack of burning. THIS IS CRUCIAL! You could have attacked the slowed level 1 Druid to set the burning off without killing the popcorn (because of its death protection!) and saved a ton of blackspace.
-Simillar thing at 9:39, where you had 4 mana and it had 8 health and a burning stack. Regenerating exactly two tiles there, then casting BURNDAYRAZ on him would’ve left him with two stacks of burning and 2 HP. Same deal.
-9:57 is the most obvious one, though: One physical hit dropped it down to 31 hp, which two fireballs would’ve dropped to zero without any additional tricks. Instead, you wasted mana on Halpmeh, which was not enough to take another hit. This one, especially, you shouldn’t have missed! :P


-(10:06)“This guy isn’t going down very easily... I must’ve messed up somewhere along the line...” Well, leaving aside the three instances listed above (It happens, don’t worry!), You probably should’ve stopped trying to fight him when you saw how much exploration it was wasting. Cutting your losses here would probably have been better. I know that can be a hard decision to make though...

-Alternatively, you are a gnome. You can afford to use a mana potion to spike a monster if you need to, you’ll have plenty more.

-Alternatively again, fighting the level 5 corrosive monster would have been *much* better. Corrosion isn’t as bad as you seem to think it is. A few stacks at mid-high levels is rarely a problem, especially a high HP class like the priest, Fighting the level 5 instead of the goblin would’ve saved you a ton of exploration.

-(10:42) Picking up Cydstep so late, with so little exploration left, is rather questionable as well, since it’s so expensive. Still, it’s possible to make use of it.

-(11:50)Converting Pissorf? Well, you didn’t really need it in the end, but converting Wonafyt would’ve been better since you had absolutely no use for it anymore. Pissorf can be really good in two-boss dungeons when you can knock both bosses into one another, or creating more exploration space by breaking walls with popcorn (though it was a bit late for that).

-Starting the Zombie boss at level 5 would’ve been bad. Maybe as a Halfling with a catapult into 6... but not as a gnome. It would’ve been disastrous, I think.

-(12:41) You could’ve set off burning to kill that Tokoloshe... that’s a habit you should get into.

-At 13:49, when you killed the level 4 bandit, you fireballed him before attacking him... why? Attacking him would’ve cost you far less in HP than it did in mana, and you’re not stacking resists so the curses don’t hurt you.
-Really, 1 stack of corrosion is almost nothing!

-I’ll just skip to the end here: For the bosses, I would’ve definitely killed Jörmungandr first. Look at your video, see how much mana resources you have left at the end? Mystera’s Refreshment, along with your Gnome potions, are an amazing tool for spiking down a boss around level 6-7 and could’ve taken down the Snake’s low-ish HP much earlier. That would’ve gotten you a much stronger attack against the Zombie boss on which to use your health potions. It probably would’ve been possible to add in extra mana for Halpmeh to sneak in two attacks per health potions for even more efficiency... and furthermore, all the Tokoloshe drop Magic Resist charms that you could've grabbed for better resists against the boss... but eh, wasn’t necessary. Good job on the win!

As you yourself noted, you’re making a lot of mistakes, we both know you can play better than that. A bit of luck helps; if you had had Super Meat Man or The Iron Man as the boss, you would’ve lost. A couple of final thoughts:

-It’s good that you’re trying to regen-fight, but before you commit to regen-fighting a monster, you really should take time to think about it. How much are both of you regenerating per tile? How many attacks/fireballs are needed? You started on that level 8 snake towards the end without even considering these things, and that lost you a lot of exploration. Regen-fighting is always a bit more math-intensive, but if you don’t take time to count, you’re wasting much more than you’re earning. (Don’t worry, though; regen-fighting is hard. I’m pretty bad at it myself)

-You really shouldn’t be afraid to take a hit or two of corrosion. It’s not the end of the world. I really suggest you go play the Thief Gold challenge if you want to be forced to learned this (assuming you haven’t done so already). Of course, you should avoid taking large stacks (5+) of corrosion unless you know you can circumvent it (burn salve, fireball spiking the boss, etc.). Corrosion is really only a problem if you’re trying to regen-fight, but even then you can burst through it if you’re focussed enough (see: the first dungeon of the second Triple Quest)

-I strongly recommend you go look at the fight against the level 6 goblin again. Consider the things I pointed out. Learning to find those opportunities can make all the difference!

-Gnomes and halfings can almost always afford to spend a potion or two while leveling. It can save them a ton of resources in the long run, and they’ll still have more potions than the other classes (at the expense of weaker overall stats of course)

-Your exploration could definitely be more efficient! Leaving aside Mystera Piety, you should always explore towards dungeon tiles which could be holding stuff! Exploring spaces like the edges of the map (or the river in this case) won't reveal anything useful, so they're best saved for last (this is something I learned while doing Vicious Gaan-Telet).

Well, that’s about it. This commentary is WAY, WAY longer than I though it would be (I left out a few things here and there too 0_0) but it was fun to write. I don't blame you if you don't read it, but if you do, I hope it was helpful!
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Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

Postby JayPlaysIndieGames on Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:49 pm

It was very helpful, and I love reading things like this.

I haven't played DD for a awhile mainly due to my school workload skyrocketing this last month, but that doesn't mean I'm done with the game. I will definitely be doing a final release review, and probably a let's play of the final product as well. I am just a bit overwhelmed with school lately and I have to keep my priorities straight :)
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Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

Postby The Avatar on Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:08 pm

If only reviewing videos could be a full time job. I'll probably get back to reviewing your vids after the game comes out, as my schoolwork is stabilizing. I can't wait to see your final release review!
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Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

Postby JayPlaysIndieGames on Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:14 pm

I put up the final version review.

Just an FYI when I start up the let's play again it will be from the beginning with a new kingdom. It will also include a slew of game giveaways including a free copy of desktop dungeons of the first episode.
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Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

Postby The Avatar on Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:10 am

Wow, I loved the review. As I said I would, I'm going to start commenting again, for you (even though you have a solid amount of skill as is) and for all of the new players who see this.

Episode 1: I love the title screen too. It's great. Good idea on doing this as a tutorial system. Love the kingdom name. Seriously, the new artwork they added here is great. Honestly, you aren't half bad at all. You are just in a rather out of proportion community. You've seen the best players out there, but you are rather good. Anyone who can beat every vicious (VGT excluded) is good. Well, there really isn't much to comment on here. No ranting for me. I'm not going to bother you with little technicalities in a tutorial where you can out level the boss. You missed the secret 5 gold, but whatever. It's probably worth noting that fighters aren't really good fighters. Wow, this could be brutal. I've reached level 7 in one of these dungeons like this. It's too fun. I don't know if this is intentional, but you don't really explain why you are doing something. You could kill that level 2 by BICEPS spamming before every hit. Seriously, you shouldn't forget your glyphs. You've played too much to make such basic mistakes. At least your popcorn bowling (slowing enemies to be killed later, for the new players) has been rather effective as of now. Good, you remembered it. Don't forget you can spam BICEPS in a pinch for 1 level higher kills (when you don't have BURNDAYRAZ). No, that is a smart move. You should probably have barely won (it would have saved you significant tiles), but other than that is was a good kill. You should have checked the subdungeon. You totally ignored it. Why attack that level 4? Just start the boss. It is only a level 5 boss. This shouldn't take too long. Now the vault! Heh, if you look back at your first few videos through these intro dungeons it is crazy how much better you are. Nice popcorn bowling. Generally you should be popcorn bowling the lowest level guys in your way first, so you don't have to kill the level 2 you slowed for lack of a better target. It is a minor point, but it can matter in later dungeons. There is literally a level 3 in the MIDDLE OF THE SCREEN as you say there aren't any. Seriously, whenever you are looking for something just scan the dungeon one line at a time to make sure. In this case it was actually good you didn't see him (as it forced you to think bigger and better), but there have been times where you have missed key enemies or pockets of exploration. Nah, you can just regen fight Sir Digby (or mid-fight level up). Heck, you can regen fight digby at level 3. Heh, there was actually a massive pocket of cash behind the wall. You just needed to LEMISI+WEYTWUT. Yeah, that thief is just an incredible generalist who can adapt to anything and play any style (though it makes the best hybrids). Actually, a priest or anyone with stoneskin can take down Gharbad with only melee attacks. If you can, pick up all glyphs with a wizard before any conversions. It nets you more CP (although you can just convert your potions for full CP if you are confident you can win without them). Shame you missed Gharbad's flavor. It's some of my favorite. You are thinking too small with these 1 level higher kills. Seriously, you can kill the boss right now rather easily. This is totally unnecessary. If a normal dungeon can be beaten in 46 seconds (I actually did this), then you can totally beat this early. Then again, it's totally fine to go completionalist here. You shouldn't have double stoneskined. If you had paused to look, a fireball and first strike would easily have been enough. That was shameful. Seriously, that play was ridiculously close-minded. You were so focused on ENDISWAL that you totally ignored your options. I hope that was intentional… Well, good first video. Since there may be new players reading this I will have two summary sections: one for you/more advanced player tips and one for new players (called lessons).

KEY POINTS (Advanced tips for Jay and more experienced players)
Spamming BICEPS works as a strategy, but is inferior to BURNDAYRAZ. Nevertheless, it is cheaper, so if two BICEPS does the job of one BURNDAYRAZ, you just saved tiles.
When WEYTWUTing enemies out of the way, start with the lowest level ones so you aren't forced to kill your slowed target to level up later.
There is no need to limit yourself to one level higher kills. In most cases, a two level higher kill is better (the exception being it taking an exorbitant amount of resources). Keep in mind to always look for the highest level kill.

When you are looking for something in the dungeon, scan it one line at a time. You are less likely to miss it.

Always be aware of all your options, and don't get too attached to one strategy. Being close-minded like this is decidedly less effective than improvising and changing to whatever is most effective for your current situation.

Basic Lessons (For any and all new players)
Whenever possible, get higher level kills. They are worth more exp, and save the lower level guys for later.

It usually a poor choice to level up as much as possible before fighting a boss. You want to get a few exp short, as leveling up in the middle of the fight gives you a full restore. Also, slowing makes enemies yield an extra exp if one-shotted.

BURNDAYRAZ inflicts Burning on enemies when it is casted in addition to the damage. While this is a very nuanced effect, the key is it makes enemies regenerate one less per tile. That means if you can't kill an enemy straight up, if you fireball after all of your hits and explore some tiles you may be able too (this is called regen fighting).

First Strike is a VERY POWERFUL effect. Savor your GETINDARE glyphs when they appear.
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Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

Postby The Avatar on Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:18 am

I just saw part 2. Here goes nothing!

Episode 2: Funny, I almost never prep any of the basics, the one exception being slayer wand for DI (which is a super edge case). Funny, it usually doesn't end up mattering that much after a certain point. Why would you blow up random holes where you can see both sides of the wall? That defeats the point. Wow, GETINDARE. A nice start here. You have almost all of your glyphs off the bat and they are VERY good. You shouldn't just level up. You are can kill a level 3. You should GETINDARE before each hit if you don't need the mana. Yes! Two level higher kills! This is what you want to be doing ALWAYS. WHAT? NO! THAT IS NOT A LESSON YOU WANT TO TEACH. You could have ENDISWALed and totally avoided using the potion. Also, you should basically never use potions to level except for a 4+ level higher kill. Wow, this is surprisingly poor play from you. Compared to what I've seen you do this is kind of sad. You are totally wasting extra mana, forgetting resources and NOT CONVERTING YOUR BICEPS AGAIN. Why are you exploring? Well, at least you used BICEPS. Seriously? You forgot first strike! *sigh* Well, fortunately relearning does work. Seriously, you could have regen fought that goblin. You actually could regen fight that banker rather easily. Aaaaaand you forget to GETINDARE. Seriously, you are playing with tunnel vision here. You are making tons of mistakes. This would not go over well at all in a hard dungeon. Also, why would you not go for the high level goblins that will not be popcorn pre-fight instead of popcorn that could be used mid-fight? Wow. That was poorly played. Then again, my standard is a bit ridiculous, but whatever. Also, did you even look in that subdungeon? Seriously? Well, you are going to want to spruce up your play before you hit the harder dungeons. Well, hopefully round two is slightly better than round one. Mistake. You should have used LEMISI at least 3-5 times to see the glyphs, subdungeons, and the boss. Aditionally, you should NEVER convert a glyph with the wizard unless you pick up all of them. Also, you are being ridiculously inefficient with your ENDISWALing. You are not creating any exploration with it and whatever minimal exploration you may create you immediately explore. At least you remember to ENDISWAL your statues for bonus cash. And more mistakes. When choosing between a GETINDARE and a fireball for the kill, you ALWAYS GETINDARE. It is both less costly and stacks dodge. Seriously, anyone with BURNDAYRAZ and GETINDARE should consistently get 2 level higher kills in early dungeons. It may be easy, but this is no excuse for poor play. I would actually go for the level 7 goblin. All you need is to convert BICEPS and use 3 fireballs. Good, you checked the subdungeon. Be careful to balance your IMAWAL use. Keep going to fast and you will be short on popcorn. You should be getting 3 level higher kills. You are still limiting yourself severely. 5 mana. You are a wizard, so BURNDAYRAZ is 5 mana. Why did you precast GETINDARE when saving it got the kill? 35% physical resist is rather low actually. Good. You are conserving popcorn. Thank you for FINALLY getting around to your conversion. Yeah, zombies have double the hp of your average mob. You could kill that level 9 warlock. Thank you for not using popcorn to approach the level up. Wow, your play has improved significantly between the two runs. Aaaand now you're killing popcorn when non popcorn monsters would be better. Well, at least it will work out. You will be able to do this with potions, but your are totally not considering the fact that you should be regen fighting him. Well, good video.

KEY POINTS (Advanced tips for Jay and more experienced players)
Whenever you have excess mana cast GETINDARE. It stacks dodge.

When you use ENDISWAL, blow up walls that were blocking exploration so you have more for later.

ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS KEEP YOUR MIND/STRATEGY OPEN. Tunnel vision like Jay had in his first run is devastating later on.

When you have determined you will fight the boss this level, use non-popcorn monsters to near your exp threshold, thus saving more popcorn for the boss.

Basic Lessons (For any and all new players)
Always check out your subdungeon immediately, but save its exploration till you need it.

Always cast LEMISI a couple times when you find it as it prioritizes revealing glyphs, sub dungeons, and bosses. Later on it will prioritize gods and items too.

Convert glyphs as soon as you are done with them unless you are playing a race whose conversion does not affect their stats.

Aim for 2 or even 3 level higher kills when you can.

I will reiterate this because it is so important: MID-FIGHT LEVEL UPS.

Also, bosses with low damage (like these bankers) can be regen fought at level 8 or so.
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Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

Postby TheSchachter on Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:58 am

Jay, I just had a thought: Why not add a link to your video descriptions that direct the player specifically to Avatar's comments on it? Could be useful for anyone trying to learn and get better at the game.

On a side note, now that I've been practicing doing audio commentary over my runs, I appreciate the quality of your videos even more. Keep it up :)
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