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Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 8:26 pm
by Lujo
Never you mind - fail runs are more watchable and tense than sucess ones as long as they don't devolve into analysis paralysis. Post more! :)

Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:03 am
by Darvin
I feel like that conversation got WAY past where I am in the game

We do tend to prattle around here. Hope you won't be too hard on us ;-)

but if you guys have any input as to how I could have done that run better please share.


#1 - this is going to sound weird, but a superb spellcasting combo is the elf fighter. Key is mid-battle level-ups; fighter gets more frequent level-ups, elves give him a big tank of mana to use 'em.

#2 - when exploring with either WEYTWUT or ENDISWAL in your inventroy, it's usually a good idea to use them to break down walls or corral monsters. That way you're at least not wasting your mana. Plus ENDISWAL can charge up physical resistance.

#3 - when monsters are on fire from being hit by a fireball, they have reduced health regeneration. This effect is most noticable on low-level monsters. If you need to heal mid-battle, hit 'em with a fireball just before doing so.

#4 - when you drank a mana potion to kill the meatman it was a complete waste. If you had revealed exactly 1 tile you would have had 5 mana, and the meatman wouldn't have healed enough to survive the fireball.

#5 - keep in mind that consecutive fireballs stack for additional damage (look at the "burn" counter on the monster), and a wizard gets double the effect of most classes. This is why the level 3 zombie and meatman went down much easier than you thought they would. Also the ENDISWAL glyph for physical resistance would have helped enormously.

#6 - when you explore mid-combat, ensure you aren't at full health or mana. Try to always sequence things so you get to regenerate both health and mana. Since monsters only have health, you'll end up ahead if you're regenerating both.

#7 - you could have killed the level 6 goblin without a mid-battle level-up. Given that you needed to expend several monsters to do this to the meatman, you would have been better served killing the level six goblin.

#8 - it's always worthwhile to check out the stairs as soon as you encounter them. If it gives an immediate benefit, you want it as early as possible.

#9 - when the level 8 zombie would have been reduced to 1 hit point, you could have killed him. Fireballs has a rather odd "detonation" effect that can be used as a finisher in some circumstances. If you use a fireball against a monster, then attack another monster, the original monster takes additional damage.

#10 - after killing the zombie, you could have definitely pulled it off if you started the boss fight immediately. Your fatal mistake was killing the goo blob; you needed that level-up for the boss fight. If you'd converted everything your max mana would increase enough to allow for four consecutive fireballs. By using your level-up against the boss, that's eight fireballs for 294 damage. Your two potions could then be tapped for another three fireballs to bring you up to 438 damage. Your health potions and physical attacks would have been sufficient to do the rest. Alternately you could have used your health potions to fight the level 9 zombie and the other weaker monsters to get another level-up to fuel your mana-based onslaught.

Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:18 pm
by JayPlaysIndieGames
Lujo: No worries, I plan on keeping this series to daily/semi-daily at least through the beta and probably for quite a bit longer.

Darvin: Wow thanks for the input.
I haven't really discovered the ideal use of a lot of the spells yet and your tips are very helpful. I will try using ENDISWAL more because I feel it is quite the powerful resource that I am wasting.
Thanks also for the info on the fireballs. The "detonation" effect sounds very useful indeed.
Also the tip on using staircases: I will take that to heart for sure.

Vids 6 and 7 are already recorded, so expect those tips to go into effect on part 8 :)

Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:25 pm
by Lujo
JayPlaysIndieGames wrote:Lujo: No worries, I plan on keeping this series to daily/semi-daily at least through the beta and probably for quite a bit longer.

:D Careful about that, the beta has been going on so long that when the game goes retail I'll feel like I've lost a friend...

Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:48 am
by The Avatar
FINALLY got around to watching the first one. It looks great, and I'm really looking forward to the next however many!

EDIT: Started watching the second. Unfortunately, your fighter policy is possibly the worst possible. The strategy is to get as many high level kills as possible so you can save the rest to use for mid fight level ups. As is frequently observed, the fighter does not make a very good fighter, but he's a great spellcaster. Also, spam WONAFYT whenever you get it to make a popcorn bowl of slowed +1 (or 2 with your bonus) monsters. To have a truly great fighter, try only higher level kills until the boss. Also, I don't think your fighter used BYCEPS. Or WONAFYT (minus the subdungeon). Or BYCEPS. You should convert them if you won't use them, but there is almost no reason not to. If you don't use them you are wasting regeneration.

The second run: You were not trapped by level 1's. You had WEYTWUT. You should have just moved them out of the way and kill a level 2. Once again, you neither used nor converted most glyphs. You used one fireball and potioned when you could have fireballed him for the kill, wasting the extra mana from the potion. You also could have WEYTWUTed and hit him.

Of course, you probably know most of this, but it is worth saying.

Video 3: You seem to keep thinking you have to kill level ones, but you usually have means to avoid doing so (ENDISWAL, WEYTWUT, and occasionally WONAFYT). Also, you are severely underusing GETINDARE. It is always more efficient to use 2 mana and increase your dodge chance than just take a hit or cast 2 fireballs. Also, there is no reason to avoid a subdungeon until later unless you have specifically set aside the blackspace for something.

Video 4: Much less dumbed down play. You probably should have converted WEYTWUT if you don't want to make a popcorn bowl since GETINDARE is better and it isn't worth saving for the edge case of goblins. Also, don't just look for +1 higher level kills. You can get a lot of 2 level higher ones early on too. When you are in a gridlock always take out the lowest level first strike monster. It will make the worst popcorn. Alternatively, if you had been constantly using WEYTWUT, you wouldn't have gotten gridlocked. Also, one technique you should try out is regen fighting just using the fireball. Also, you were often using an unnecessary fireball when all you needed was an attack and first strike. Don't ignore 2 level higher targets until the end. In a normal dungeon they will usually be beatable with nice glyphs (which you had) at lower levels also (even at levels 1 and 2). Also, whenever you are about to level up, get rid of all unnecessary health and mana to damage a three level higher target so you can kill it when you level. You really need regen fighting. You dismissed a level 9 meatman that you definitely could have beaten. Vampires are undead. He's a banker. The boss does a menial amount of damage. You should use your remaining exploration to regen fight the boss. Petrification is very useful, but you should use it on level 1 monsters before a good kill. It grants a 50% exp boost, so with extra bonus exp it makes a nice combo. Puzzles should pobably be looked into ASAP. They are great for teaching.

Video 5: PISORF is a great alternate to BURNDAYRAZ if you can shove them into a wall. And the -1 cost makes it great for wizards. Also, you really need to popcorn bowl with an early WEYTWUT. For the purposes of regen fighting a fireball is always better than BICEPS. Also, do it once you can't attack further as it slows down monster regen by 1 per level. Yeah, I'd work on regen fighting. Think out the best strategy (whether to fireball, WEYTWUT or BICEPS, and when) before executing it. NEVER USE POTIONS BEFORE THE BOSS (except for 4+ level kills). WEYTWUT+PISORF is a great combo. Swap a monster in front of a bunch of walls, regain full mana and smash it through them. Don't look at upfront damage for kills. Regen fighting is important. There is even a simple equation to see if you can. Learn it, its a huge help. As BICEPS is so inexpensive, always precast it and then regen 1 mana for 3 fireballs. You can do the same for GETINDARE. If you have 20 mana, fireball and GETINDARE you can dish out 4 fireballs and a finishing hit without being touched. Not sure whether this was intentional, but when clearing out guys you chose the goblins. Good job. For mid fight level ups it is often possible to nail 3 level higher kills (or 4 before you level up). Always kill the 2 level higher unless it wastes an obscene amount of tiles. I generally don't use popcorn to get nice kills on mid fight level ups unless they are superb (4 levels higher maybe?). BICEPS erodes 3% of all resistances. You should whittle down the bosses resistances as much as possible before fighting. With LEMISI you even had extra tiles to do this with. Using LEMISI was a mistake against the level 8 zombie. You had accessible tiles. You get less mana when you use LEMISI. Also, the burst effect from BURNDAYRAZ could have finished the zombie. You just had to hit a wimpy monster (preferably the level 2 goblin). You don't need to clear the map. Don't feel bad about lots of monsters on the map. What matters is whether the boss dies. I'm not sure why you wasted 4 tiles fighting the goo. You could have fireballed and double attacked instead, saving the tiles. You should have saved the mana potion till after the level up.

WOW. I just binge watched all of this from 11-1 in the morning. These are great, and while I provide a lot of constructive criticism, don't think your play or video is bad. Sorry about the disorganization, I took those notes as I watched the video. Main points: 2+ higher level kills, REGEN FIGHTING, convert things you won't use earlier (especially WEYTWUT), and use WEYTWUT to make a bowl of enhanced popcorn with extra mana from exploration, more mid fight level ups but almost only against the boss. Good job!

Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:24 pm
by JayPlaysIndieGames
The Avatar: I'm glad you enjoy the videos, and I promise they will continue.
Eight is already recorded, and I feel like my play improved greatly between 7 and 8 due to the feedback I've gotten from others.
Your advise is very useful, and it is quite a lot :) I have read it all, but I feel like it will take some time for me to digest it and really incorporate it into what I am doing.
Some things that I will be sure to pay attention to:

1: I don't have a good understanding of all the glyphs and their uses yet, and as a result I massively under use them. I was aware that I was under-using them, but not to the extent that you have shown me. For instance I wasn't even paying attention to WEYTWUT as a possible exp booster, and I had no idea that LEMISI gave you decreased return on investment.

2: REGEN fighting. I did this a bit more in vid 8 i think, but I don't have it down to a science and certainly I don't have an equation for it yet. Right now I hit and move and kinda hope I regen faster than them. I hope that this changes over time, however I don't think it will ever be my style to have a pen and paper to do math while I play, so until I can do it in my head it will always be by feel. I think this is something I will improve on with time.

3: Overuse of potions. I know trust me it hurts me when I do it to.

4: Conversion and hanging onto things in my inventory that I don't use. The reason I do this is because I don't understand everything in my inventory 100% and I always think that I might come across a situation where I see the use of something I didn't see before. In my runs before I started recording I mainly played human and converted everything right away, but I realized I wasn't learning the strategies my items were good for. This will change with time as I learn the use of everything.

To that point: PUZZLES!
Do you guys want to see me muddle through puzzles that you already know how to solve? I will of course because I need to do the puzzles, but I am wondering if you guys want me to record that or just leave it and mention it on the next recording if I have extra cash or something.
I am OK at puzzle solving, but not the best and it may take me several tries to solve a puzzle.
Or would you rather that I only record the solutions, and not me working my way through them?

What I may do is create a puzzle playlist separate from the DD beta playlist so that people don't have to see that if they don't want to.

Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:21 pm
by Darvin
I did this a bit more in vid 8 i think, but I don't have it down to a science and certainly I don't have an equation for it yet.

The formula is (roughly) this:

Attrition power = effective (after resistance) damage * (level+healing bonus) * healing multiplier

(the "bloody sigil" item gives a +1 healing bonus, the "burning" effect of the fireball glyph gives a -1 healing bonus)
(troll monsters and the monk class receive a x2 healing multiplier)

If your attrition power is higher than the monster's, you can beat them with regen-fighting. If you're lower, then you lose to them. Note that this calculation doesn't take mana into account, so if the numbers are close you should still be able to win by adding spellcasting into the mix.

The reason I do this is because I don't understand everything in my inventory 100% and I always think that I might come across a situation where I see the use of something I didn't see before.

The Goblin race is great for this kind of playstyle; almost a shame they're unlocked so late.

Goblins convert items for experience points

Do you guys want to see me muddle through puzzles that you already know how to solve?

If you've unlocked him, Dracul's puzzles are great for this. Short, sweet, and to the bloody point.

The third Mystera puzzle is a good one if you want to learn to master glyphs.

Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:45 am
by The Avatar
I just watched the next too. Here are some more haphazard notes.

Video 6: You could have killed that level 3 warlock. If you stacked 2 burning on the warlock you will do 18 and if you precast GETINDARE you will kill him with your 8 damage first strike (6 attack+2 burning burst). That would also have preserved all the 1's. You casted 2 fireballs where 1 and first strike would have been more efficient. You keep dismissing 2 level higher kills you definitely could have beaten using regen fighting. The hitball guys scale to your level so levels 3-5 are probably best for fighting them. You tend to cast a fireball and hit when a hit and first strike would be much more efficient. Taking out 1 level higher guys is not the safest course of action. Do you know how burning works? Learning and utilizing all its effects (including prestacking it) will significantly improve your game. Against the level 8 warlock you used 2 fireballs instead of 1 GETINDARE. You need to pay attention to this, you wasted 8 mana and therefore 8 tiles with that alone. You could have killed the level 9 warlock by prestacking burning and precasting GETINDARE and saved the popcorn getting a four level higher kill. You need to pay more attention to how many fireballs you're throwing. You could have thrown 2 fireballs and two hits but chose 3 fireballs and two hits wasting more tiles. Lol, you forgot to fill up on mana. Double check your stats before attacking. You say 4 fireballs are huge, but against monsters 3 fireballs and a first strike usually does more damage. Don't push to 8 being confident you can get to 9, use them both as mid fight level ups against the boss. You probably should have just mid fight leveled and then regen fought. Also, you seem to forget you have GETINDARE a lot. Whether it is wasting 2-17 mana by fireballing when a first strike would be so so so so much more efficient. You can enter hitball 3 times for a health potion, but then a mana and reflex potion. You literally just threw away 2 health potions against a level 6 zombie. There was no good reason to even attack that zombie and you sell your potions for gold. The second hitball guy you could have killed without any potions by using GETINDARE instead of a fourth fireball. Seriously, use GETINDARE every fight. It is the best choice 99% of the time.

Video 7: Seriously, they should remove those difficulty warnings on the dungeon description. It isn't really true. You shouldn't use WONAFYT to fight same level guys (as ironic as it seems). Lifesteal takes out 30% of your hp and gives it to the enemy. You should be popcorn bowling with WONAFYT always. Golems have the base stats and magic res. I assume you noticed the semi-transparent bloodpools. They surround the boss, so you shouldn't be surprised when you find it as the blood pools show you where it is. You could kill that level 5 vampire before finding BURNDAYRAZ. The life it steals from you goes over its cap, so if you hit it it will only regen back to its cap. Then if you both regen to max, convert WONAFYT you can attack, reveal a tile or two, and kill him. Nice pun. Starting over is how you should deal with life stealers. Remove their extra, then restart and kill. You really need to pay more attention before you start fights. You aren't using WONAFYT to popcorn bowl so convert it. ASAP, not 3 levels after you stop using it. You shouldn't have fireballed the level 7 before picking up WEYTWUT. You should have grabbed WEYTWUT, attack the warlock, WEYTWUTed him and then killed for a bonus exp. WEYTWUT is an extra hit. You keep forgetting that, and it is a huge help that also nets +1 exp. Use it much much more. You state a meatboy is in your way while you have the SWAP glyph in your inventory. Nothing is in your way. You keep saying how you are using too much regeneration. It doesn't matter as much how much exploration you use, but how much bonus exp you get over the amount of exploration you use. If you use half the map to kill a level 9 at level one that is GREAT! They do have levels, but levels aren't shown for no exp enemies. The dark ones should probably be undead. Try not to regen unless you need both health and mana. Humility is one of the best boons ever. First of all it gives you potential to get one more level up and second of all it makes you get more bonus exp. What would normally be a 1 level higher kill becomes a 2 level higher kill. The one bad thing is it hurts fireball damage and health regeneration. DON'T use potions! They kill your piety with GG and you could have regained 2 tiles or so. Don't forget LEMISI costs 2! Make sure you always have 2 mana if you are out of tiles and have it. Oh dear. God robbed you. That tends to happen on the first run if you don't notice potions cost you 10 piety. You got really lucky there. While you can't use potions he does provide divine healing and mana restoration.

Main Points:
Burning: It has 3 effects. It makes every fireball do extra damage equal to the amounts of burning stacks on that monster (2xPlayer level cap), it discharges that damage when you hit it or another monster each stack dealing one magic damage, and it slows monster regeneration by one health per tile. You can pre stack it so all of your moves do more damage.

Popcorn Bowling and Leveling: You need to popcorn bowl whenever you get WONAFYT or WEYTWUT with extra mana. Just take low level monsters you will be able to one shot, move them out of the way, and they will be +1 exp harvestable monsters when you need them. Also, you love getting to a very high level before fighting the boss, but that is a bad policy. As counter-intuitive as it is, you should start at level 7 or 8 and then level up once or twice (or even start at level 6 and nail 3 level ups!). You will still get those nice big level nine stats and attacks, but you will also get the level 7 and 8 ones on top of them.

Regen Fighting: This is something you learn by experience, so try it as much as possible. Use fireballs when you can't attack further so the enemy regen is slowed. Also, this would have worked in every situation you used a potion (except the boss). Seriously, just do a practice run or something to try it out.

Absentmindedness: This is seriously hurting some of your runs. You seem to forget that you have first strike and choose a more expensive fireball instead. You don't regenerate enough mana before the fight. Things like that. If you pay more attention and frequently check yourself to make sure you are doing the smart thing it will really help.

Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:49 pm
by JayPlaysIndieGames
Okay I just finished the first wizard challenge and now I understand why everyone has been getting on me about not using my glyphs enough.

I experimented with IMAWAL, GETINDERE, and ENDISWAL in this one and oh man have I been under using them. IMAWAL seems particularly amazing, but I can't believe that the dodge chance from repeating GETINDERE stacks! ENDISWAL also seems like a great way to take out enemies that are way out of your league.

Anyway I feel like after that run, combined with the advise I've been getting here I will be playing much nicer with the glyphs that I get :)

Re: Video Review of Desktop Dungeons and a Let's Play!

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:02 pm
by Lujo
I'm not sure anyone explained "popcorn bowling" yet. It means gathering low level guys with either Wonnafyt or Wheytwut slowed to kill them later. You can do this while you explore, and just munch on them when you need some quick xp later.