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QCF Design Community • View topic - Disappointed..


Disappointed..

All things Desktop Dungeons

Re: Disappointed..

Postby Lujo on Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:24 pm

I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
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Re: Disappointed..

Postby xspeedballx on Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:49 pm

Level ups are just another resource. A powerful limited resource. I imagine like every other resource it was intended. Midfight level up's make perfect sense once you do it and recognize it. However, it IS unintuitive to learn. What I wonder is there a way to make them more obvious to learn outside of a tutorial or a puzzle? Something the game itself can teach you? Is there a way?
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Re: Disappointed..

Postby Lujo on Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:22 pm

I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
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Re: Disappointed..

Postby squirrelnest on Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:52 pm

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Re: Disappointed..

Postby dislekcia on Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:04 pm

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Re: Disappointed..

Postby Bloggorus on Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:28 am

Flying globs of health and mana like you get on regen would go a long way.

It might also be worth just adding toasts for level ups.

There's so much that goes on at level up, especially if you include things like Patches, piety gains and losses, resetting per-level item effects like alchemist scroll, status effect heals, pacts like overheal, momentum loss...

Stats would be good too, especially for monks, rogues and priests who have modified stat gains per level up.

A simple notification in the top of the screen, for instance, that fades after a certain amount of time.

I would do a little mock up of what i mean but i'm on my phone. Maybe later.
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Re: Disappointed..

Postby TigerKnee on Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:22 pm

I've got to say, I'm glad I'm not in charge of ever having to teach people something in "subtle" ways like what was mentioned above. If I were doing it, I would just outright put a sign that goes "Hey, did you know that you can utilize level ups spikes to take down more difficult opponents with less resources consumed?", but that's just how I'm wired. I'm a really direct to the point person.

The wiki will always be needed because no matter how the game designers thinks they're being really obvious without outright telling the player what the solution is, there's always someone who will never "get" something without outright being told. So unless we want to go that route (which we don't, because the devs has already stated that the learning process is "part of the fun"), that's the way it has to be.

(Wow, I haven't posted in god knows how long.)
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Re: Disappointed..

Postby Lujo on Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:49 pm

I almost got pwned by Shifty Brickwork!
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Re: Disappointed..

Postby Lujo on Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:52 pm

Appologize for doublepost, but I thought about the subject a bit (was always interesting to me). While the ding! spike is powerful, it also has fuel and fuel management. Simple, readily available fuel, and relatively simple management to master once you start paying attention to it. Double-boss dungeons pretty much mandate knowing the technique for dealing with at least one boss and you can't really use it to kill multiple bosses because the scaling XP cost (outside of specific strats with, say, goblins, fighters, assassins and so forth). I guess steering the newbies towards it right off the bat in some way might actually not devalue the experience challenge wise if you look at it like that.

I guess my concern was that the if the mechanic were more widely and readily recognized the feedback might turn out to be: "dings are way too good", and it's probably both too late to do anything about it, or impossible. But that's just an opinion.

I also sort of think that the fighter bronze challenge is a sort of "blunt level popcorn munching teaching tool" except it fails to teach a permanent lesson maybe because it's not really clear that the challenges are ment to teach broader lessons (old issue).
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Re: Disappointed..

Postby xspeedballx on Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:23 pm

Nobody would ever say Ding's are too good. Those words and similar meaning ones just would never be said. This is because the behavior of the level up is "standard" rpg behavior. You go up a level, you get stronger and you get your resources back. I am well aware of a number of genre's that do not employ this but those I would say are the exception. This is all just an aside though.

Learning to use level ups is necessary for mid to late game play. Learning any advance play technique in most games will make the early game easier. This is especially true in rogue likes where you increasingly want to spend as little time as possible in the early game. DD is somewhat unique in that the early game never comes back. Also an aside.

How do you teach a player about them at the right time? When is the right time? Right as they reach hard dungeons? Are hard dungeons reached too quickly? Can it be taught in an attempt or two at a hard dungeon?

What if it was an achievement? So we have cheeky.. which eludes to one key thing to learn.. fighting above your level. I am not sure we want more badges but what if when achievements get added there involves one around killing a weakened higher level enemy after leveling up(wording is terrible). Sometimes a great way to teach people something is to challenge them towards something.

Another thought though probably way out of scope is a boss who grows more powerful as you level up unless he is below 75% health could be workshopped in the right direction.
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