Map Tease

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Re: Map Tease

Postby Waldo0 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:27 am

The Avatar wrote:You already made it to part 3? Nice! Well, once I get enough money to beat the second I can't wait to see it (FREE PREPS PLEASE DEVS).

Part1 and Part2 of the third triple quest aren't hard as much as the origin second triple quest.

Actually, I don't know the free preps is a good solution. :roll:

How about rewarding golds according to progressing the stages?

EX)
Pt1 Clear: 500golds
Pt1 and Pt2 Clear: 1500golds
All clear: 3000golds
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Re: Map Tease

Postby The Avatar on Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:36 am

Makes sense. I was kind of raging because of how many gold grinds I did for it. Frankly what you said makes sense.

Just took my first look at the third triple quest, and so far I agree. I only looked at the very first mission, and it doesn't look that bad. Although from what you've said of the rest of it, no doubt it is nigh impossible. My favorite type of challenge. Although frankly I only one the second triple quest due to a lucky dodge (although the luck was balanced, because I couldn't retrieve my Orb of Lusory from under an illusion).
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Re: Map Tease

Postby Nandrew on Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:35 pm

Waldo0 wrote:The pt3 of third triple quest looks like impossible.

It is same that there are 5 zombie bosses + ? final boss, and we should fight with them at lvl 8~9 :cry:

I want to ask the map editor, do you really try to clear new maps by yourself at least once before they are released? :?:


When it comes to super-hard scenarios, I often clear my maps on a nerfed preparation setup, *then* tweak situations to be unfavourable towards the player and let it loose upon the world. I try to release it in a state where I think it's just slightly too hard to win for anyone who doesn't make a concerted attack with a well-developed Kingdom. Then, after a round or so of feedback, I attempt the dungeons myself at full power and consider what I want to do with the results.

Back in the day, someone would invariably find a way to break whatever challenges were set in this fashion and start walking all over EVERYTHING after not-too-long because it's almost impossible to consider every tactic that every player can whip out. It's oddly pleasing to find that this is no longer the case, though there tend to be more constraints in these situations that I take direct control over, so that makes things easier.

Unfortunately for y'all, this does not mean things just become easier because folks say it's Nintendo Hard(TM) -- I still have very clear memories of people thinking that Paladin Gold was "impossible" for the longest time, despite it being one of the *easiest* Golds to consistently beat (I've won that scenario literally every single time I've played it. Ever).

Sometimes, you just gotta think out of the box and try new stuff. The game isn't fun if you think you've just mastered it for every hypothetical scenario. In the triple quests in particular, there's some important stuff concerning the resources which you do (and don't) receive as part of the standard dungeon layout. Gold piles missing in Scenario X, particular glyphs appearing with startling regularity in Scenario Y ... there's a few hints being dropped just by the dungeon layout.

We're listening to feedback and responding to it where necessary. For example, Quest 2-2's boss was appreciably flawed and extreme in the way it previously worked, so that's why its mechanics got changed. The entire first quest arc was made easier because of the stage in the game which it unlocks for most players. Et cetera, et cetera.

If someone complains about a dungeon's difficulty in the top tier of play, the first thing I check on is whether or not they're approaching the situation with the correct mindset.
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Re: Map Tease

Postby The Avatar on Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:35 pm

When it comes to super-hard scenarios, I often clear my maps on a nerfed preparation setup, *then* tweak situations to be unfavourable towards the player and let it loose upon the world. I try to release it in a state where I think it's just slightly too hard to win for anyone who doesn't make a concerted attack with a well-developed Kingdom. Then, after a round or so of feedback, I attempt the dungeons myself at full power and consider what I want to do with the results.


Wait, have you attempted and won the third triple quest? If so, I must say that is impressive, even if you designed the place. That third mission has ridiculous boss power (I haven't even seen the possible final boss, but right now it is about 3 times as hard with less provided resources), a nasty monster set (debuffers and doom armors?!), and only provides GG. It seems beyond any strategy by itself. I guess I'll have to come in with a GREAT set up. We're talking 5 Grimm's Grotto strength Franks...

Back in the day, someone would invariably find a way to break whatever challenges were set in this fashion and start walking all over EVERYTHING after not-too-long because it's almost impossible to consider every tactic that every player can whip out. It's oddly pleasing to find that this is no longer the case, though there tend to be more constraints in these situations that I take direct control over, so that makes things easier.


Then again, back in the day there was so much more broken stuff to abuse. Anyone remember the old Tri-Sword? Seeing as you basically need a broken tactic to win this, there isn't that much left in the game to use. Back in the day, there were tons of broken strategies--one for every situation. And there were more total options, so more broken strategy potential.

nfortunately for y'all, this does not mean things just become easier because folks say it's Nintendo Hard(TM) -- I still have very clear memories of people thinking that Paladin Gold was "impossible" for the longest time, despite it being one of the *easiest* Golds to consistently beat (I've won that scenario literally every single time I've played it. Ever).


You win Paladin Gold every time? I still hate that place. I may have been the first non-dev to win it, but I am terrible at the strategy it requires. It's miserable. Even if you don't nerf stuff if it's too hard, there is a certain point where it just becomes ridiculous. Then again, if you've beaten it, let it be.

Sometimes, you just gotta think out of the box and try new stuff. The game isn't fun if you think you've just mastered it for every hypothetical scenario. In the triple quests in particular, there's some important stuff concerning the resources which you do (and don't) receive as part of the standard dungeon layout. Gold piles missing in Scenario X, particular glyphs appearing with startling regularity in Scenario Y ... there's a few hints being dropped just by the dungeon layout.


Thinking out of the box is a key part of the game, but there aren't that many options to consider that can beat 5 Franks (with a little extra boost at the beginning for each one of them), and then the super boss that may or may not exist in addition to them. Then again, the triple quests open up a whole new amount of strategy options, but even still, your inventory is quite limited. And since Portal Perilous drops almost all of your glyphs in the first mission it means you have to leave some behind and be shorted later because you didn't have the inventory space.

We're listening to feedback and responding to it where necessary. For example, Quest 2-2's boss was appreciably flawed and extreme in the way it previously worked, so that's why its mechanics got changed. The entire first quest arc was made easier because of the stage in the game which it unlocks for most players. Et cetera, et cetera.


This is very true and I commend you for it. Hesss really was broken. Although with the new nerfed Tri-Quest 1, it makes the jump from 1 to 2 rather insane. I haven't looked extensively at the remade first, but to me it seems all tri-quests should be gated behind winning the game.

Anyways, that just my 2 cents.
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Re: Map Tease

Postby Nandrew on Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:23 am

The Avatar wrote:Wait, have you attempted and won the third triple quest? If so, I must say that is impressive, even if you designed the place. That third mission has ridiculous boss power (I haven't even seen the possible final boss, but right now it is about 3 times as hard with less provided resources), a nasty monster set (debuffers and doom armors?!), and only provides GG. It seems beyond any strategy by itself. I guess I'll have to come in with a GREAT set up. We're talking 5 Grimm's Grotto strength Franks...


I attempted, won it, THEN made it harder and added some polish elements to push out to the masses. :P I've not won it at the current difficulty and I'm finding a bit of time this week to refine it (1 & 2 have received more attention than this arc and there's a couple of hiccups in 3 that I still have to correct anyway). I just have to playtest it enough to figure out whether my losses are down to bad luck or not and then figure out how much we wanna tone down the scenarios -- it's pretty much in the design brief that the third Triple Quest has to be *very* difficult.

This is very true and I commend you for it. Hesss really was broken. Although with the new nerfed Tri-Quest 1, it makes the jump from 1 to 2 rather insane. I haven't looked extensively at the remade first, but to me it seems all tri-quests should be gated behind winning the game.

Anyways, that just my 2 cents.


We want people to start accessing the special edition content from about mid-game. This does mean that there's a startling jump between 1 & 2 as well as 2 & 3 because these three quests actually have to encompass the difficulty curve of just about the entire metagame.

People starting the Goat Glade should be confident with Hard dungeons (you unlock it after finding a few gods). Conquering the entire set, however, should require nothing short of a veteran who regularly tackles Vicious GT. Right now it's poised to be harder than VGT, but since the Tower gives you so many resources and runaway flexibility (particularly with gods), I'll probably need to simplify it a little more here and there. Equivalent difficulty, different scenarios, et cetera.
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Re: Map Tease

Postby Lujo on Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:40 am

The Avatar wrote:
Back in the day, someone would invariably find a way to break whatever challenges were set in this fashion and start walking all over EVERYTHING after not-too-long because it's almost impossible to consider every tactic that every player can whip out. It's oddly pleasing to find that this is no longer the case, though there tend to be more constraints in these situations that I take direct control over, so that makes things easier.


Then again, back in the day there was so much more broken stuff to abuse. Anyone remember the old Tri-Sword? Seeing as you basically need a broken tactic to win this, there isn't that much left in the game to use. Back in the day, there were tons of broken strategies--one for every situation. And there were more total options, so more broken strategy potential.


From the last time I played I'd say this is pretty much the thruth. Well, it's trickier than that. There were a few more options for "way out of line" scenarios, and even further back there were more out of line scenarios where these seemed like the only options. The difficulty prompted the discovery of broken elements, then those were nerfed, then the difficulty had been brought down (possibly too low, overall). If this place is harder than the old insane stuff, then it really is nintendo hard.

Most of the "break everything" rampages were done with a handfull of things, really. Those that weren't were mostly reported as above / severely above the curve and left there by you guys. I'm not sure any of those which would be applicable in the scenarios is even powerfull as some of the old stuff. It's probably beatable somehow, but the real question is who are they supposed to challenge? Because some of us went at the old challenges with the specific mindset of "well, item/glyp/combo is certainly getting nerfed, but I might as well cheat my way through challenge X".
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Re: Map Tease

Postby Waldo0 on Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:36 am

Wow, they were not just five zombies... :oops:
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Re: Map Tease

Postby The Avatar on Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:22 am

You must have attacked one.

I'm honestly drawing a blank for how it is even possible to do this. I can go in with 58% resists, any items I want, and any glyphs I want. If they don't all weaken when one dies I'm totally confused on how to beat this. I must e approaching it wrong.
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