Hints for vicious dungeons?

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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Blovski on Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:15 am

^
Oh I want the walls to definitely keep the seen requirement. I think that's the main balance improvement from the good old days. Just think the unseen enemies requirement is really weird and artificial as far as actually using that boon goes (basically, it's useless except for late-game converters to Binlor, and even then it's pretty niche) and the walls requirement is a bit excessive now that Stone Soup means Binlor players get less of them to play with.

@Wargasm - yeah, that's pretty much my experience of poison.
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:12 am

Yep, the problem always was destroying the structure of the map, IMO.

As for poison - how much are you guys taking?
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Wargasm on Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:43 am

I took two shots of it the one time and it still seemed to barely be useful. Seems to operate at something like 1/5th of an APHEELSIK casting? Protip: If I'm regen-fighting something, I can cast APHEELSIK at it probably a couple of more times at it than I can survive being hit by it, unless it's a Meatman.

Granted, Poison is a kind of weird boon for the Lord of "NEVER get hit more than once" to be handing out anyhow. There's a thematic sense in trickery/poison, but the actual mechanics of using poison play out against the piety system of the deity. :/
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby TheSchachter on Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:52 am

It can occasionally tip the balance when you're trying to top off a kill, but... yeah, hard to leverage efficiently. I tried to do it with a Paladin in my first challenge run video, but two shots of poison really weren't adding much at all, even with Halpmeh and natural resistances (it was a Purist + Miser run). I suppose if you stacked more resists, it would get applied more... Not sure if that's efficient, it rather feels like trying too hard (or maybe I need to be convinced of its possible power).
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:17 am

Two hits isn't enough. I take 3 shots min.
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Wargasm on Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:32 am

Lujo wrote:Two hits isn't enough. I take 3 shots min.


I'm trying to think of another boon where we go "Well, it doesn't even start being useful until you've taken it three times..." and I'm not doing very well, truth be told. Absolution and Vine Form are the closest I can think of, and both of those provides incremental and useful advantages which are immediate or nearly immediate (as soon as you regen the hp your max was just increased by.) I've heard said that five shots of either is enough in most cases. Equal to JJ's boon so far as max HP, and with other benefits besides, and without costing you a potion. But I think that's about as close as we get to "boons which are individually useless." Stone Heart's the only other real option I can think of there.

Not to mention if the Wiki's still up to date, that's 75 piety for three doses of Poison. I expect *awesome* for 75 piety, not "has just barely attained usefulness."

Perhaps my standards are too high and I'm a spoiled brat though. :p
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:36 am

Well that might be the case seeing what you get from TT using the other boons. However, getting a crapload of TT piety isn't exactly difficult. The guy lets you funnel money into it. Not saying it couldn't be a bit stronger, but it keeps your mana open for fireballs which means more effective poison AND more fireballs while you regen fight stuff.

And the thing with poison is that it's sort of niche unless it's broken - if you can tank hits from a boss it piles up like crazy, and if you can't, well, 75 piety for a full heal worth of poison is pretty amazing, don't you think?
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Wargasm on Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:14 am

Nnnnnot really. I could reliably get a full health and mana heal 3/4ths of the time from JJ for 75 piety, or a full one for 80 if I haven't taken Chaos Avatar yet.

Dracul will give me a full heal for 20 and killing a piece of popcorn to drop the curse. Heck, for 75 he'll do it twice. No mana included, but hey.

GG will give me a full heal for 50 piety, health and mana. Actually 105% heal. I even get to break it into chunks if I just need to top off something a little. Little bit of inventory space cost too, admittedly.

TT himself can get me two Quicksilver potions for 70 piety and a couple of health potions. There's a good many situations where a dodge is worth more than 40% of my health. Oh, and there's some Reflex potions thrown into that too, free of charge.

So yeah, even with three shots of Poison, I can get the same benefits or better from several other deities, including TT himself in several cases. I'm just not that thrilled by it. :/
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:21 am

Well, could use a bit of a buff then?

I'd try it out but it really doesn't mesh well with prepping TT.
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Sidestepper on Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:34 am

Privately, I've always thought that the poison boon just doesn't belong on TT, period. I understand from a thematic standpoint why it's there, but from a mechanical standpoint it sticks out like a sore thumb. All the other boons encourage activities that TT likes, but he only likes poison in the abstract. You have to convert out to use it. Poison is only really good if taken early, and getting enough piety to stack poison high, convert, and do it with enough space left to leverage it is something I've never pulled off.
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