Hints for vicious dungeons?

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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Wargasm on Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:35 am

Like I said, I'd be happy with just five gold for taking it. I know the poison bit is REALLY hard to balance between "useless", "useful", and "stupidly good." Even if the only time I ever used it was a place to drop all my spare piety before leaving a dungeon just for a few extra coins, that's still more than I use it now. It would be _nice_ if the poison effect could be more useful than "about one single full heal" but I'd understand if they didn't want to fool with that at this point.

Or they could slightly decrease the piety hike, I guess. 15 + 8n or 7n or something. Yeah, it's not neat multiple of five like most everything else, but a couple of extra shots earlier on might help more. The gold's probably safest. I mean if you have 75 spare piety at the end up a run, surely 15 gold is at least "better than nothing." It's not like you get any gold - or anything else - for unspent piety at the end of a run.

(Sidestepper is correct though. We really should have said something during Beta to get poison changed to something else entirely if the devs were willing. It only makes sense from a flavour standpoint; mechanically it actively encourages you to do something TT will punish you for, unless you specifically use it as fireball spike, stab, regen mana, fireball one more time and _maybe_ the poison was enough tiles so that they didn't regen over your fireball damage.)
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:42 am

Eh, that'd be fine I guess. Back then it was bundling a 10 gold with a boon you should've been taxed gold for. Could be pretty legit now. Also, doesn't the first helping of poison pay for it self if you know what you're doing? So it's more like 60 piety or 90 piety?

Also, one thing about poison is that it's in fact easy to stack an ungodly ammount if you can stack any. Simply don't use it as your first source of healing but rather your last. If you get your dings in, youre both stacking it and increasing your level of poison. If you then blow your health potions you get more stacks on. Then you fireball the dude for good measure to get him burning. I find that if you're high enough level the poison generally doesn't fall off. I'm just checking if your calculation of what you can get from it right now is taking all this into account.
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Wargasm on Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:06 am

Well I'm probably not using it to 100% efficiency but I doubt I've ever made a single run at 100% efficiency, the absolute minimum amount of wasted tiles, attacking things in exactly the perfect order to get the most bonus XP while still using every HP and MP resource available to me, et cetera.

Still, you don't have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get most other boons to work for you. Maybe it's my fault in that I'm not jumping through enough hoops to get the most from it. I'll toy with a bit some more, next time I play (I'm rather hoping to fall asleep soon, I have plans in the morning) but I remember it being distinctly less powerful than a single cast of APHEELSIK - I think I was getting one tile worth of poison in per stab - which might matter against a few specific targets, but not very often, even if I combined it with the Venom Dagger. I mean sure, I could go all out. Assassin of TT with a Venom Dagger using APHEELSIK and Poison boons, but then it's still pretty much everything except the boon doing the real work. The boon's peeing in the ocean and trying to convince himself he's making any kind of appreciable difference.

I'm not convinced.
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:15 am

Eh, I'm not saying it can't use a buff, or that you have to go all in with preps and stuff. There's no shennanigans about it, it's just that poison touch benefits from blowing everything else first and then regen fighting.
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Grakor456 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:22 am

Lujo wrote:I'd try it out but it really doesn't mesh well with prepping TT.


I honestly wonder if this is one of the main problems with it. I never did understand why TT needs such a horrid prep penalty...yeah, he's a good god and you can win maps without violating that penalty at all if you're really careful, I just don't understand why that particular penalty was needed. It makes the poison attack useless and greatly diminishes the usefulness of the dodge boon, and is just over-harsh in the first place.

Then again, I wasn't around for the beta, so I have no idea why god prep penalties were thought to be needed in the first place. I thought the entire point of paying gold for preps was for -that- to be the penalty.
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Wargasm on Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:29 am

I mean I'm pretty good with poison. I'm comfortable with all the Thieves' Guild classes, I know to Poison before fireballing so that the regen nerf stacks with the poison preventing the heal, et cetera. I just don't think the boons is worth the piety, and that it's on the wrong deity.

Actually if you gave Poison to Dracul and took Blood Swell over to TT and renamed it "Full Coffers", you'd be pretty much set. All the other Dracul boons already heal or resist damage, so having an offencive one wouldn't hurt, and the poison is specifically useless against his precious undead. All of TT's boons are about unfettered offence (aside from Quicksilver potion), so one heal rounds him out nicely.

Or you could give Earthmother the poison; there's plenty of naturally venomous animals. Pass Entanglement over to TT. TT _loves_ mass slow. It prevents piety loss. Maybe rename it to "Tricky Snares" or something. That would have gone over fine too, and Vine Form's damage reduction gives a little boost in regen-fighting anyhow.
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:50 am

I'm not sure anymore. Once upon a time poison was a broken regen fighting boon and potions were a broken spiking boon, and dodge and tikki's edge were hilarious utility boons and tribute allowed you to turn money into piety. And now poison is not as strong (or worse depending on point of view), but everything else is still gravy and he gives out a getindare which is a bloody strong if not the strongest glyph.

I don't know what the dev's reasons were exactly, but it sort of makes sense that prepping TT would be difficult. If he had a negligable prep penalty like the currently overused gods (EM, Mystera, Binlor) have, you'd be starting every run with at least +20 gold, dodging and +1 XP per kill and would join any other god with 25 initial piety (50 off of Tikki Tooki) unless you decided that you don't need another god. He's also mister Supreme Slayer. Once upon a time he'd be overprepped for sure, but that was before Mystera, EM and Binlor were the single minded destroyers they are now.

Even though I don't know what to think after the poison nerf and buffs to other gods. Maybe I'm just tired. People would be prepping him for griding gold, and that's a really stupid reason to be prepping a god.

@Wargasm - Poison might just need an extra +1 at the first taking or something. You can't remove blood swell from Drac because you balance his other boons costs/effects against it - cheap ones detract from bloodswell power, the resist one boosts it but is expensive. Giving TT entanglement, (and entanglement a proper cost), is an interesting idea, though. Tons of problems with it, but the way it screws you out of first striking popocorn for dodge setups would be interesting (if there wasn't allready too much overlap with Tikki's Edge). It'd be a nerf to Earthmother. Eh, it's either crazy enough to happen, or not gonna happen due to this beig the released game and not beta anymore...


Err, we've derailed this thread incredibly, let's just stop?
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Blovski on Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:26 pm

Human Transmuter of Binlor remains a very good choice for Naga City, actually. Relatively easy to build up 65% Magic Resists (I'm taking in Elven Boots), piety for stoneskins, extra blackspace below from Endiswal, an attack of about 150 and enough solidity that none of the bosses will threaten to one-shot you. Even the dreaded Frank-Goo-Tormented Soul lineup couldn't cope with it.
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Lujo on Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:16 pm

Getting to know how to play the transmuter right is a good idea in general, and I'd suggest going with Blovski's advice for Naga City. I've found him really good in Vicious Gaan'Telet (there's more obvious options, but IDK), because the Human Transmuter can get to crazy damage numbers if you play your cards right.
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Wargasm on Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:46 pm

Hm. I've always liked Elven Transmuters; you get a low transmute threshold (70), and the extra mana helps you abuse your ability to get CP from casting. Maybe I'm doing them wrong, though. They're not like a lot of classes where the best way to play them is obvious.

Sort of like a Vampire in Cursed Oasis.
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