Hints for vicious dungeons?

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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Lujo on Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:06 pm

Wargasm wrote:Hm. I've always liked Elven Transmuters; you get a low transmute threshold (70), and the extra mana helps you abuse your ability to get CP from casting. Maybe I'm doing them wrong, though. They're not like a lot of classes where the best way to play them is obvious.

Sort of like a Vampire in Cursed Oasis.


Err, there's that way of playing them, and there's the other way of playing them. I'm sure the other way worked for me, I don't play too many elves.

The other way works like this, prep Human because the CP bonus sinergizes with the temporary DMG increase, use spells to "pad out" the CP bar just enough so that whatever you convert will pop the bar when you want it to (use shop fodder or glyphs, doesn't matter), so you get an incresingly huge temporary damage buff which lets you use first stirke of any sort to dispatch enemies. The inital LEMISI scouting lets you know anything there is to know to formulate the god/item/boss strategy of your choice and lets you pad out the bar for the second CP pop (the first one is from converting LEMISI). I don't try to force pops through spamming but rather convert in a timely fashion and gradually ammas the benefits. There's other ways to play him, I guess - Dwarf with B2P if you can find B2P can be quite silly (or used to be - I accidentaly cleared the Vicious Steel with it purist I think).

Humans work the bestest, but it can probably work with others, too.

EDIT: But generally, I've found that any other approach makes your abilities clash and it feels like you're trying to push a square peg into a round hole. Once you try it that way the design is brilliant even if you're not going with human. It's my favourite class tbh.
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby lolQuaff on Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:53 am

Transmuter seems like an awesome class. I definitely want to learn how to play him well. I'll try a VGT run eventually and get some sky high damage. 200+ easy? I always assumed people just went Human Transmuter, never really thought of Elf Transmuter... seems interesting. I think I'll start out with the super high damage once in a while route instead of the pretty high damage more frequently :D
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Lujo on Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:04 am

Well, I think peole sort of think he's supposed to be a spellcasting class (tinker seems to be the "rogue" archetype, and crusader a "fighter" or "cleric" archetype) when in fact he's a hybrid/melle boss. I've herd it before that elves are really good because larger mana pool = better spirit sword. It's probably true, I should try it sometimes. However humans get their CP bonus damage applied without having the SS active. Also after the first spirit sword in a fight, you've allready used up all your mana and you'll definitely go for more than one at the boss fight (and if you spend mana on spirit sword you don't spend it on fireballs so it's a bit ho-hum on paper. And if you spend it on spells it might be harder to time your spirit swords right. Eh.).

I'm curious what you mean about the super high damage and pretty high damage? You'll have about the same damage whatever you do if you go human, but not forcing spells more than you need and timing conversions pays off in both the short term (burst damage, yay) and the long term (omg, my damage burst is getting progressively higher!). Spirit sword doesn't stack, so you'll always have "pretty high" damage for the strike you need (empty mana first), and every spirit sword will get +10% more for every spirit sword used during a run from being human.

VGT still takes building up resists and all that jazz, it's not that easy, but hey, it's fun :) And I'm not sure if you can get so much CP over the cause of a run than there.

EDIT: Also something to try out is the Binlor Halfling Transmuter. If you're using stoneskins, and converting for spirit sword, you'll end up with lots of potions. The damage increases from binlor are % based so they sinergize with the SS, and the potions give you more fuel to keep hitting stuff. It might be a thought worth pursuing somewhere. Damage's nowehre nearly as crazy but your staying power comes from CP which you're focusing anyway (instead of say, drac or GG healing). Might not work on endurance runs like NC and VGT but I'm sure there's places where it would.

EDIT2: Sorry about the long posts and stuff - I could talk about transmuters all day <3

EDIT3: Does anyone know if SS refreshes you mana when you hit it so you always get full benefits even if you've spent all your mana? Cuz then elves are a bit better than I thought and I could shorten this post significantly :D
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Blovski on Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:23 am

Elf Transmuters are very fun but I feel having a much higher basic damage is better in a scenario like Naga City where you have the bottom level of regen fighting where spiking just won't hold up. Lujo's basically summed it up - convert glyphs early to get good catapults early in a vicious dungeon, and then have ******* ridiculous stats in the subdungeon. Binlor synchronises very well with the early catapults through Stoneskin and the MR is big for the late game.

Kind of curious if a JJ Gnome or Halfling transmuter could work.
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby lolQuaff on Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:30 am

Lujo wrote:I'm curious what you mean about the super high damage and pretty high damage? You'll have about the same damage whatever you do if you go human, but not forcing spells more than you need and timing conversions pays off in both the short term (burst damage, yay) and the long term (omg, my damage burst is getting progressively higher!). Spirit sword doesn't stack, so you'll always have "pretty high" damage for the strike you need (empty mana first), and every spirit sword will get +10% more for every spirit sword used during a run from being human.


I should've been more clear. I meant start playing as Human Transmuter mostly for the super high damage and then mess around with the other races for pretty high damage more frequently :D

Lujo wrote:VGT still takes building up resists and all that jazz, it's not that easy, but hey, it's fun :) And I'm not sure if you can get so much CP over the cause of a run than there.


Certainly not ready for transmuter VGT yet. Looking forward to it for sure though.

Lujo wrote:EDIT: Also something to try out is the Binlor Halfling Transmuter. If you're using stoneskins, and converting for spirit sword, you'll end up with lots of potions. The damage increases from binlor are % based so they sinergize with the SS, and the potions give you more fuel to keep hitting stuff. It might be a thought worth pursuing somewhere. Damage's nowehre nearly as crazy but your staying power comes from CP which you're focusing anyway (instead of say, drac or GG healing). Might not work on endurance runs like NC and VGT but I'm sure there's places where it would.


That seems pretty cool. Would love me a tri sword there. Def just gonna stick to human for now though to keep it simple
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Wargasm on Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:30 am

Strength Potion increases based off the mana you lose to it, but I'm pretty sure SS gets the same bonus regardless because I recall a situation with a Goblin Transmuter (the Silver challenge, I think), where I got two conversion bonuses at once and they were both the same, even though I was obviously out of mana for the second one. Unless that was a bug, then there's no penalty for being out of mana when you activate Spirit Sword.

(Coincidentally, Transmuter is the generally the only non-Wizard class I take More Glyphs for usually, both because I want a diverse set of options on what glyphs I have for getting my CP up and because I want the lowered conversion value so I don't double-SS when I don't want to.)
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Lujo on Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:30 am

Blovski wrote:Kind of curious if a JJ Gnome or Halfling transmuter could work.


I'm not sure gnome really works well, but I'm dead bent on taking a Halfling down to Naga City. I need binlor for the resists, it's true, but maybe I don't. Here's the logic - if I'm taking Fabulous Treasure for the buyout anyway (I don't have the dwaven gauntlets lockered and I need all the shop junk for potion hoarding and spirit swords) then I can afford going TT for tribute/perks/dodgestep potions, and convert into binlor down below. Heh, maybe I'm overcomplicating it, maybe I'll just go binlor and see what happens. BB with victory screenie I hope ^^

I keep pointlessly speculating on just how good the little buggers are and every time I give them a chance they amaze me. Let's see if they have a ceiling. :)
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby lolQuaff on Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:35 am

What are some good purist Naga City characters? Just tried Dwarf Rouge for a bit but that quickly started to seem like a bad idea. I'm gonna try it again with a little more focus this time I suppose
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Blovski on Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:09 am

Lujo wrote:
Blovski wrote:Kind of curious if a JJ Gnome or Halfling transmuter could work.


I'm not sure gnome really works well, but I'm dead bent on taking a Halfling down to Naga City. I need binlor for the resists, it's true, but maybe I don't. Here's the logic - if I'm taking Fabulous Treasure for the buyout anyway (I don't have the dwaven gauntlets lockered and I need all the shop junk for potion hoarding and spirit swords) then I can afford going TT for tribute/perks/dodgestep potions, and convert into binlor down below. Heh, maybe I'm overcomplicating it, maybe I'll just go binlor and see what happens. BB with victory screenie I hope ^^

I keep pointlessly speculating on just how good the little buggers are and every time I give them a chance they amaze me. Let's see if they have a ceiling. :)


Well, despite being the *worst* at using transmuters, I just spiked VHOS to death with a Gnome JJ Transmuter. I had forgotten/never knew that Chaos Avatar will activate Spirit Sword. Personally I suspect the halfling is actually more powerful because you're not getting your mana pool continually buggered up by spirit sword.

@Lolquaff: Fighters are a great Purist option for various reasons and even more so if you don't have the de facto massive experience boost of gods as well and need to use a mixed approach on the bosses. I almost managed it with a Rogue but then the game crashed :/ Actually, while it's not always easy using Crusaders purist, you will get an altar topside with them, so they are probably the easiest option if you're OK with scumming a tad to get an earlyish altar.
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Re: Hints for vicious dungeons?

Postby Wargasm on Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:18 am

Well if you're alright with scumming, then Tinker is always good, since "purist" to them still means "starting with a bunch of preps" and all their other benefits come from shopping anyhow. You can buy your way to success, just need at least one shop to spawn a good resist item (Elven Boots/Platemail/Witchalok Pendant/etc.) and preferably a good damage and/or health booster (Troll Heart/Dwarven Gauntlets/Tri-Sword if you're a Halfling/Gnome/Fine Sword/Badge of Honour). HALPMEH spawning is a huge bonus as a poison cure/way to spend MP vs. Magic Resist. Piercing Wand is another good buy.

Wizard makes another good vote for Purist, since you'll be able to hold onto all the glyphs you find and still have inventory left. Given how the arena works, if PISORF spawns and you've gone Orc and the Rock Heart and/or Blue Bead spawns, you could have an amusing run.

Crusader, as noted, is a good pick since it's the only Purist way to get a topside altar.

Any of the regen-fighting classes (except Vampire) are at least bringing the right skills to the table, although without preps their shop luck will be a big factor.
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