Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby The Avatar on Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:48 pm

I don't think it's fair to put all people who do or don't need a prediction into a box. That just tends to make people angry and doesn't really help your point. And frankly, if you play slower you should basically never have a misclick (barring hardware mishaps). In fact, if you do misclick die, the game is trying to subtlety show you that you are playing to fast (probably).
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby OneMoreNameless on Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:19 am

@Wargasm: Eh, in the context of a turn-based game such as Desktop Dungeons I'd consider the term 'gameplay' to refer only to choice of items, combat tactics etc. whereas an extra click or two (that would be optional) after you've already made your decision doesn't affect the former and so would be a minor UI concern. This argument is getting about three topics away from anything meaningful at this point though so enough of that.

@dislekcia: Seriously though, update your FAQ with a mention of and explanation for commonly denied suggestions. (And, like, that the game is actually released.) When a new player identifies a problem and helpfully suggests an improvement, taking time out of your busy day to respond that they and everybody else are wrong and you're refusing to explain why is a dick move, not even counting the insult towards the beta testers who warned you this exact situation would occur.

For reasons that would plainly be useless to go into, I myself am neutral towards a death confirmation. However, I will suggest that an option to disable the red screen flash be made available. It gets a little irritating after a while, and I'm not convinced it's helpful as a warning - it occurs so often while eg. checking enemy stats or between every cast of a fireball barrage that I suspect a player is either going to become very quickly desensitized to it or else start avoiding higher level enemies altogether instead of figuring out ways to defeat them.
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby berpdreyfuss on Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:16 am

OneMoreNameless wrote:However, I will suggest that an option to disable the red screen flash be made available. It gets a little irritating after a while, and I'm not convinced it's helpful as a warning


I strongly support this one.


@gameplay discussion: For me, it's certainly a gameplay change, it does take away the threat that you can die by clicking on a monster. It takes death almost completely out of the game. Really, read through the thread I posted, there's more information there.


OneMoreNameless wrote:@dislekcia: Seriously though, update your FAQ with a mention of and explanation for commonly denied suggestions. (And, like, that the game is actually released.) When a new player identifies a problem and helpfully suggests an improvement, taking time out of your busy day to respond that they and everybody else are wrong and you're refusing to explain why is a dick move, not even counting the insult towards the beta testers who warned you this exact situation would occur..


Yes, updating the faq should be done and the stickys Darvin suggested, too.

dislekcia told you that this discussion has been done on the boards. I also took the short answer "they're wrong" not as seriously as you took it. There was a smiley next to it as well.
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby OneMoreNameless on Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:06 am

Change of plans. My schedule is clear. Needless nitpicks are gooooo.

berpdreyfuss wrote:For me, it's certainly a gameplay change, it does take away the threat that you can die by clicking on a monster. It takes death almost completely out of the game.

If a monster can kill your character, the monster could still kill your character. The puzzle is to bring down the boss(es) without reaching a situation wherein your character is stuck unable to kill anything more. Character death is largely irrelevant once the puzzle is unsolvable. The "threat" of dying by unintentionally clicking on a stronger enemy either by carelessness or technical mishap is not a part of this puzzle, rather, it is an external worry caused by the nature of the interface between you and your character ie. said clicking. At best it contributes to atmosphere and encourages pacing; these may change a player's overall experience with the game in the same manner that a soundtrack or graphical flourishes can, and are not to be discounted!, but they do not change the game's puzzle components that the player is ultimately interacting with. It's those components that I refer to as 'gameplay'.
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby berpdreyfuss on Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:53 am

OneMoreNameless wrote:The "threat" of dying by unintentionally clicking on a stronger enemy either by carelessness or technical mishap is not a part of this puzzle, rather, it is an external worry caused by the nature of the interface between you and your character ie. said clicking.


Technical mishap is not a part of the puzzle but why is carelessness not? I think it's a good thing that the game encourages you to be careful in your play. "encourage pacing" is a gameplay change in my book.
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby OneMoreNameless on Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:28 am

berpdreyfuss wrote:Technical mishap is not a part of the puzzle but why is carelessness not?

Desktop Dungeons is a turn-based game that provides constant visibility to all uncovered tiles. Neither quick thinking nor information recall are being tested in the same manner that forward thinking and puzzle solving are. For a player to carelessly click on a monster marked as 'DEATH' would require that player to have become impatient or distracted for reasons external to what the game is actually challenging and requiring of them, and therefore be entirely the player's (or at least not the game's) fault and separate from the gameplay itself.

Or to use an analogy, a sudoku puzzle would not be considered more challenging for being printed on easily smudged ink - rather, the medium itself has allowed for an external error unrelated to the original challenge.
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Robotrek1000 on Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:41 pm

If developers want to sell game to wider auditory of people, they should include death warning. If they are not planning to go with tablets and massive casual category, they may not include this feature and limit number of gamers of Desktop Dungeons to those people who are using this forum and some people on steam.
So shortly: if developers want to make more money and get a larger auditory (because normal person after several accidental deaths will delete the game) they have to add the possibility of death warning, or design death warning in some smart way, or just let the user the ability to turn on/off death warning
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby berpdreyfuss on Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:05 pm

What about: "DD is a turn-based game that provides constant visibility to all uncovered tiles. Neither quick thinking nor information recall are being tested in the same manner that forward thinking, puzzle solving and being patient and focussed for the time of a dungeon run are."?

You exclude "being focussed" from your definition of DD to argue that an element which encourages that is not good.
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby OneMoreNameless on Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:53 pm

If anything, I excluded risk management. Remaining focused for the length of a dungeon run is - although advisable - not being tested or strictly necessary to win as a perusal of the screen will provide you with any information you may have forgotten. I am, in fact, in middle of a Magma Mines run right now before I was distracted by wondering what other players' opinions of a particular subdungeon were and then subsequently this updated topic. ^_^;

Encouraging players to remain focused through aesthetic techniques or interface choices is obviously a good thing regardless of how you define Desktop Dungeon's genre of core gameplay, though there are other downsides to this particular choice. That it is an interface choice is part of the reason that many new players are going to rail against it - the common expectation is that a game's interface should work for the player, and if it seems like the interface itself is punishing the player then they're less likely to take away the lesson intended behind it.

In any case, my own opinion is that a death confirmation would be nice but ultimately fruitless since there dozens of other undetectable ways you could make careless mistakes or just inevitably derp on occasion that screw up your puzzle without literally instant-killing your character.
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Lujo on Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:04 pm

Grakor456 wrote:one of the first things that always happens is the mouse beginning to double-click on a single-click, and that -will- kill you in this game. In fact, DD has already forced me to get a new mouse.


:D I've said a lot of what there is to say on the "gief warning!" side of the argument, but this is da troot. It's also the one reason I'm being a distanced sceptic on the viablity of DD on platforms without a mouse.

But there's decent arguments on the other side related to the function of death in the game (seems easily avoidable, and IS, so why's it even there, no?). I sort of (mis?)remember one of the devs saying they even tried it without death in there at all, but it led to people just never motivating themselves to figuring out stuff - they'd just get frustrated by clicking on monsters and get bored. Would take a textwall to explain why this is so and why nothing short of "DEATH" in red letters would work.

Anywho - there have been tons and tons of improvements in this area in many ways, it used to be way more easy to missclick yourself to death (I even counted on sucessive testing playthrough of the bizzarely long game) and the opportunities to die to missclicks have gone down drasticaly.

EDIT: Oh, and the red flash is totaly not working out for me, it makes my head hurt :(

As for any arguments starting with "If you want this game to appeal to more people / humans" - I love seeing them, I personally understand them, I think you're right, but my advice is to not get emotional. Either you're missing an important bit of design logic or part of the big picture and you're gettign worked up over something that is in fact a reasonable compromise, so it's not worth getting worked up about, or the devs are being d***s who've went and put out a game that is that elitist in the first place and they had years to reconsider stuff, so not worth it. Just saying...
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