Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

All things Desktop Dungeons

Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Sidestepper on Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:32 am

OneMoreNameless wrote:
Sidestepper wrote:It's not something that's going to change because of petitions or debate, any more than a novelist would rewrite their book to give it a happier ending because of fan feedback.

This is more like, if the pages in a book were falling out because readers weren't turning them delicately enough while reading then the publishing house would probably reprint them with better glue or binding.


Nah, the book falling apart metaphor would be more like if DTD had game breaking bugs due to the switchover to the Steam client. Which of course it did, and the devs quickly rewrote their code to address the issue.

This is more like a reader disliking a certain character and wanting them removed. Whether the game is game is stronger or weaker because of the death mechanic is a matter of taste, not a simple matter of the game not working as designed.
Sidestepper
 
Posts: 767
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:36 am

Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby OneMoreNameless on Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:05 pm

Sidestepper wrote:
OneMoreNameless wrote:
Sidestepper wrote:It's not something that's going to change because of petitions or debate, any more than a novelist would rewrite their book to give it a happier ending because of fan feedback.

This is more like, if the pages in a book were falling out because readers weren't turning them delicately enough while reading then the publishing house would probably reprint them with better glue or binding.

Nah, the book falling apart metaphor would be more like if DTD had game breaking bugs due to the switchover to the Steam client. Which of course it did, and the devs quickly rewrote their code to address the issue.

But the book falling apart is harmless to the story, it just causes the reader to waste time picking up the pages and rereading less clumsily before they find their spot again. It might even teach the reader to care for their possessions and treasure the story all the more in the still and quiet of their own home. Who needs those annoyingly heavy hardcovers anyway.

Now if the book spontaneously caught fire opening and you had to go wave it in front of the bookstore for them to put in an order for another copy that wouldn't do that, well! :P
OneMoreNameless
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:26 am

Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Wargasm on Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:37 pm

Robotrek1000 wrote:It's not supposed to be a simple sign "Are yo sure?".
It may be that you need to click monster with death bar 2 times. First time you click something happen with the screen (it becomes more red, or animation of red flashing changes) and you hear some warning sound. Second time you click - you die. There's a lot of design decisions that can be made on this feature.
If I'm not the one who have the similar problem why not to implant this feature in some way?
It also seems to me that if you implant this feature - there could be no death at all, but for now the only deaths now is deaths by mistake or lack of attention. I don't know if that right.
If this is a specific design feature (death by mistake) and if you could explain the importance of this deaths by mistake - so be it and we can end this conversation.
If deaths by mistake is important for core gameplay, there maybe some design decisions made about death confirmation (one decision I already proposed)
But as for me - red flashing is not enough to prevent from death mistake


Then maybe this game just isn't for you. Maybe find a nice game that won't let you ever make any mistakes that will hold your hand from beginning to end. I'm sure they make games like that now. I hope I certainly never play them. What's the point if there's no risk of failure? If it's not a challenge, why should I care? But if I hear of any such game, I'll let you know. It might be just the thing for you.
Wargasm
 
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:22 pm

Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Lujo on Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:50 pm

Robotrek1000 wrote:If this is a specific design feature (death by mistake) and if you could explain the importance of this deaths by mistake - so be it and we can end this conversation.
If deaths by mistake is important for core gameplay, there maybe some design decisions made about death confirmation (one decision I already proposed)


I don't believe I'm doing this, but here goes:

It's not intentional as far as I know. All your deaths by mistake are meaningless entirely - IF they are deaths by mistake. If your mouse malfunctions, if your cat pressess a button, if you use mouse and keyboard and twitch your fingers, it's all completely meaningless and teaches nothing and you are right to be confused and feel ripped off when this happens.

BUT!

Everything else you learned while playing the game, everything you did while playing the game, was done "not to die". The game is rather huge in terms of elements, and rewards thinking. It doesn't reward madly clicking all over the place. If you could click on monsters who would kill you and not die you could be stuck and not be aware that you're stuck, and this would put you on the wrong track about what you're supposed to interact with. When the boss info box sayes "DEATH" in red letters, you know that time you spent will be wasted if you click on him - so you'll do anything else and possibly find a solution. You'll click on shops, glyhs, altars, blackspace, smaller monsters - even exit stairs! But you'll do anything to change that info warning from "DEATH" to "SAFE" or "BARELY ALIVE".

Thing is - you're not entiteled to win, or even guaranteed. You can mess yourself up out of a solution. The less careful you play, the more likely you are to mess up. Being at constant danger puts you in the right mindset to try anything and know right away if what you did leads anywhere. If there was no DEAHT there'd be way too many situations where you'd wonder "ok, why isn't this working?" instead of "ok, this guy'll kill me, let's change that".

You don't learn by dieing - but you learn everything there is by NOT DIEING!
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2819
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Robotrek1000 on Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:22 pm

Wargasm wrote:
Maybe find a nice game that won't let you ever make any mistakes that will hold your hand from beginning to end.

Lujo wrote:
You don't learn by dieing - but you learn everything there is by NOT DIEING!

I'm not stupid and I can play games. But using one touch to kick enemy is not for me. Made 2 touch - first warn you, second you win or die.
I want to make decisions to die or not, and this game can allow it. But I don't want to die all the time by accident - it doesnt learn me nothing.
For example in Dead Souls each death train you game skill - you teaching on your mistakes. And what skill should one touch death in DD teach me - not to touch death bars and be careful - honestly it's not very useful skill.
Robotrek1000
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:10 pm

Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Lujo on Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:45 pm

Clicking on something that sayes "Death" and flashes the screen at you doesn't teach you anything, that's true. What it's supposed to teach you is to not bloody do it and do anything else. Why didn't it teach you that? Not clicking on stuff that will kill you is an incredibly usefull skill - it teaches you to click anything else and everything else leads you to killing the boss.

I mean, the one-click death is unfair and probably not very smart as far as sellling the game to humans as opposed to lab rats is concerned, that's true, but how in the world are you dieing so much?
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2819
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Wargasm on Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:13 pm

I want to play Minesweeper, click on a mine, and not die.
I want to play Mario games and have to run into everything twice before I take damage.
I want to play Castlevania games where no monster's first hit counts.

Sorry, guy. You're asking for ridiculously-super-easy-mode, and that's not this game. It's not going to be this game. I'm not sure why you thought it would be this game, because this game is advertised as a Rogue-like. Most of us here are or have been Rogue-like players, where one click can cost you a character you've spent months on, *without* any warning, and it's a permanent death too. You're not apt to get sympathy because you're watching telly while you're playing and can't be bothered to pay attention.

It goes like this;

If you can't be bothered to pay attention, you're not taking the game seriously. That's fine.
We take the game seriously, and that's also fine.
You're asking for the game to be altered to suit you - personally - not a class or type of player, but SPECIFICALLY YOU, and to alter our experience along with it. By what right do you, someone who admits they don't take the game seriously, have to dictate how we who take the game seriously play it or should play it?

That would be like me going to a sporting event and telling the referees they need to change how the game is played for my amusement when I'm just a spectator there. "Oh, I'd prefer the boxers didn't use gloves." Nevermind I'm not the one at risk for injury, and that that's simply how boxing is done, I'd be walking trying to change that just to suit me.

That's what you're doing here.

And it's not going to happen. Sorry. End of story. You can start taking it seriously and paying attention, and you'll die a lot less anyhow, or you can start looking for another game. This isn't going to be Care Bear Dungeons.
Wargasm
 
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:22 pm

Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Robotrek1000 on Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:52 pm

Lujo said:
but how in the world are you dieing so much?

I must not be super concetrated and tense when playing games, absence of warning make me super concentrated, instead of getting pleasure of killing monsters and relaxing. I get tired overconcentrated and die by mistake
Game which keeps you all the time overconcentrated - is not right game - you will get tired too early. You need alternate period of relaxation (exploring dungeons) and period of concetration (killing monsters, solving puzzles).
Also when game do what you don't want it to do - it not right - I mean uninteded clicking on characters and death
SOLUTION is simple: click 2 times, not 1, to hit monster.
P.S. Also I sometimes play on MacBook wit trackpad - it also very inconvinient because 1 tap is counting for 1 left button mouse click
Robotrek1000
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:10 pm

Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Robotrek1000 on Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:56 pm

Wargasm wrote:
You're asking for the game to be altered to suit you - personally - not a class or type of player, but SPECIFICALLY YOU, and to alter our experience along with it. By what right do you, someone who admits they don't take the game seriously, have to dictate how we who take the game seriously play it or should play it?

If I'm the only person who bothers about it, than take my appologies and we can end this discussion. Thanks for all your comments - it was very interesting discussion :) :) :)
Robotrek1000
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:10 pm

Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Lujo on Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:07 pm

Wargasm wrote:That's what you're doing here.


Not necessarily. What he is saying makes sense, only not as much sense as he makes it out to be. The game is a bit schisophrenic about this and it's presentation in general and for all the praise I (and anybody) can give to the devs they have an incredibly manipulative way of "handling" their audience. And plenty of stuff only makes sense if you go really deep into the design of it, but doesn't and is sort of demanding and insulting if you don't. It has been very frustrating and even infuriating to recognize oneself in the role of a blind lab rat during beta testing many, many times (when it could've been avoided and the necessity of it was wholy unapparent or even existant). A lot of stuff would've been tested more easily if communication with the devs or clues about what their intentions are about certain issues weren't very obscure.

Then again, you can argue that what we got was more than is usual in the world of game development, but they came across as completely strange aliens who've only seen a human being through a telescope many times and expected way too much out of a potential player thus narrowing the potential appeal of the game. It might be cultural differences, though, but IDK. The guy's reaction is legit, especially since the answer is a tossup between "only way it could work" and "we wanted it to work that way". The insistance on one-click approach was something that is suspect, but they did end up making a ton of compromises.

Anyway, what the guy is saying is almost certanly true and more in tune with the perspective of the majority of homo sapiens on the planet earth, and is actually reasonable unless you go into detail. There's nothing wrong with him for thinking it, and there's deffinitely no good reason to NOT be thinking it from where he's standing. He does lack a bit of perspective, though :D

And for the dude - don't play on a bloody touchpad. And don't get overconfident. And there's a feature in the menu which works exactly as you described - one click to select ETC. They implemented it. It's there :D
Last edited by Lujo on Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Lujo
 
Posts: 2819
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:47 am

PreviousNext

Return to Desktop Dungeons

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron