Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Lujo on Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:59 am

Well, technicaly, Kaizo Mario is ment to be played with protection from accidents as the accidents are supposed to be impossible to see coming, and as for how hardcore that is, google if you don't know. Also, really, and this is for realz, there aren't supposed to be any "accidents" in DD. Really, it's not part of the gameplay, it makes no sense as a hazard etc. etc. But since you can argue that death is necessary (and the guys who made the game are arguing this on rather solid grounds) the compromise is necessary, and really, the alternative interface modes are quite good at preventing the accidents (well, mouse related ones, you can still get overconfident and hit space bar too much but it's way less of a hazard).

So, the OP got his problem solved, what are we doing arguig about this? :)

EDIT: @Wargasm - if you're not convinced, I don't feel like going into another "is this a puzzle or a roguelike" discussion, but do ask around the forums what it means when I'm the one defending a debatable design decision in DD. :)
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby berpdreyfuss on Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:30 am

Just one more example :)

In minesweeper you can click on a field in a corner that's surrounded by 1's and "die". What's different about this or do you think there should be a death warning, too?
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Grakor456 on Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:41 am

berpdreyfuss wrote:Just one more example :)

In minesweeper you can click on a field in a corner that's surrounded by 1's and "die". What's different about this or do you think there should be a death warning, too?


I didn't want to continue this argument, but I'll answer this:

The point I made earlier is that this comparison doesn't quite work, due to the aims of Minesweeper and its intended challenges, as opposed to DD and its own intended challenges.

Minesweeper is a game where, inherently, the challenge and entire point is deducing where bombs are based on the numeric clues given to you. Being given a warning that you're about to step on a bomb defeats the entire purpose of the game. Stepping on a square surrounded by 1's is stupid, but fits within the game's logic: if you were unable to deduce from the clues that there was a bomb there, you lose. If someone steps into a mine that the clues would logically point to there being a mine present, then that is a failure of the player on a level of -skill-, where he failed to deduce the location of the bomb present (or made a guess and failed.)

This is -not- true in DD. There is no deduction of "is this enemy going to kill me?" because the game flatly tells you that he will, information that a game like Minesweeper does not provide you with. There is no logical reason why a player would choose to attack an enemy when the prediction tells you flat-out that you will perish, unless you're hoping for a lucky dodge or you know you've lost and you've been cut off from the dungeon entrance. Again, this is unlike Minesweeper, where a player may have a reason to choose a tile, even if it is merely because he failed to logically deduce that a mine is indeed in the tile.

Or, to put it all more simply: A death warning makes no sense in Minesweeper because the entire point of the game is to avoid stepping on the mine tiles. This is in contrast with DD, where you're never put into a position where you have to make a guess or make a deduction on whether an action will kill you or not: you are always armed with this information. It is, essentially, the difference between making a "mistake" by a failure of player skill versus making a "mistake" by mere chance or a lapse of attention.

Again, I'm not arguing -for- a death warning, I just wanted to point out why it was a bad comparison. The only level that this worries me personally is how sensitive DD is to hardware failure.
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby berpdreyfuss on Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:59 am

I guess this is not about should there be a death warning or not in DD anymore, but I would like to get it a little bit clearer. So if you don't mind I would like to continue a bit without too many emotions involved...

"There is no deduction of "is this enemy going to kill me?" because the game flatly tells you that he will"

Would it make a difference if there was no combat prediction and you would have to deduct it by adding and substracting?

"information that a game like Minesweeper does not provide you with."

I chose the example because a single square surounded by 1 in an otherwise empty surrounding isn't about deducting anymore, you immediately see that you're gonna die.

"This is in contrast with DD, where you're never put into a position where you have to make a guess or make a deduction on whether an action will kill you or not: you are always armed with this information."

I would argue that the whole point of DD is to take actions that avoid your death in the dungeon. Perhaps this point would be clearer if there was no retiring or surrendering. Each click you make decides whether in the end you're gonna click on the boss to win or you have to click on a monster (or retire, which is like dying in my book) and die because there is no other possibility.
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Grakor456 on Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:40 am

berpdreyfuss wrote:Would it make a difference if there was no combat prediction and you would have to deduct it by adding and substracting?

<snip>

I chose the example because a single square surounded by 1 in an otherwise empty surrounding isn't about deducting anymore, you immediately see that you're gonna die.

<snip>

I would argue that the whole point of DD is to take actions that avoid your death in the dungeon. Perhaps this point would be clearer if there was no retiring or surrendering. Each click you make decides whether in the end you're gonna click on the boss to win or you have to click on a monster (or retire, which is like dying in my book) and die because there is no other possibility.


1. Perhaps it would. Even without combat prediction, you're still given all the information you need to know if you're going to die or not. Ultimately, in that instance it would depend on what the devs see as being the main "challenge" of the game and what elements of skill they want present. Is this a game where I am expected to do heavy mental math? That said, I think the lack of combat prediction would fundamentally change what the game is at its core.

2. A square surrounded by 1's isn't quite the same as mousing over a monster and seeing DEATH on the combat prediction. Now, keep in mind that this is an extremely specific case in Minesweeper, in contrast to talking about the very core of combat in DD. Now, someone could still click on a square that all the clues point to there being a mine there: that is part of the intended challenge of Minesweeper. The whole thing is about logical deduction. In the case of a square surrounded by 1's, you'd have to be extremely ignorant of the workings of the game to click the square, but it's still possible. Minesweeper doesn't hold your hand and automatically flag that square as having a mine on it. If it did, then things would be different.

3. I think there's an important distinction between surrender and death. One allows you to recoup part of your losses, after all.

But otherwise, I agree, which is actually why I think death against monsters in DD is somewhat superfluous. At the end of the day, DD is won or lost by the idea of resource management, how you choose to use what's in the dungeon to work your way up to the boss. Monsters are little packets of experience to be claimed on the way up, at the cost of resources, trading one for the other. And here's the thing: DD does not need random death to that level 1 gorgon to be challenging or cause the player to lose: he loses if he squanders resources or fails to accumulate enough power to take out the boss(es).

The game flat-out tells you when you're going to die. It provides a more favorable solution by retirement. Why would someone choose death over escape unless he had no choice?
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Galefury on Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:23 am

Sometimes I die to misclicks which is really annoying. The most annoying time was when my mouse would occasionally doubleclick when I only clicked once. I really wish there had been a death confirmation then. I guess I could have gone with right click + keyboard to make the best out of the situation, but luckily my mouse fixed itself a day later.

I think death confirmation would be good as an accessibility option. But maybe the different control schemes are enough. I trust the devs, and they say they tested death confirmation and found that it really messes up the game. That's good enough for me.
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby berpdreyfuss on Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:54 am

Yes, your points are valid about 2. and 3.

About 1.: I think here is an interesting point: The devs chose to include the prediction but not the death warning. For me these are both fundamental changes, although both only convert information that you already have.
So for me the argument: You know that you're going to die, so there has to be a death warning makes no sense. It's where you draw the line what is a challenge and what is not. Not clicking on a monster labelled "death" might be part of the challenge.

Thanks for your thoughts, let's leave it here.
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby OneMoreNameless on Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:15 pm

So hey, here's another question:

If death confirmations are the vilest, crassly offensive, most game-wreckingly awful UI considerations ever to have been spawned in the damned minds of ignorant (paraphrasing!) ... why do we have compulsory confirmations for the lesser penalty of altar desecration? Even when carrying the item that specifically prevents them?
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby Wargasm on Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:21 pm

Probably because "DEATH" in big red letters is a pretty obvious consequence, whereas the things that come of altar desecrations are not. Especially to new players who don't have the deity-related codex entries memorised.

Not to mention some of the punishments are worse than mere death. After all, they make a spell for laughing at death.
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Re: Sign confirmation which prevents character from death

Postby The Avatar on Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:50 pm

Uh, only the JJ altar desecration has a warning. The others don't really say anything (and personally, I'm against the JJ altar having a warning anyways).
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