Quick question re: knockback

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Quick question re: knockback

Postby OneMoreNameless on Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:20 am

It just occurred to me that getting hit by one enemy with knockback while standing between them and a second enemy will cause the second enemy to also take damage from the first enemy's attack, in the same manner that you can cause while casting PISORF.

Please, please tell me that a Desktop Dungeons veteran has for at least one obscure scenario crafting a working strategy for clearing the dungeon by being flung around like a tennis ball between enemies. :? :shock: :D :notsureofbestemote:
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Re: Quick question re: knockback

Postby TheSchachter on Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:35 am

Obviously, I can't speak for the veterans, but one common failsafe when exploring the Labyrinth without Endiswal and while Rex is chasing you around is to get him to knock you into a wall, so that you may create your own escape route. Jay does that in his video for last week's challenge, actually. If you're asking specifically about damaging another monster by being knocked into it, I've yet to see or hear of anyone do that... but there's always a first :P Why not give it a try?

A Monk who finds the way to get between a minotaur and another monster might be able to make something out of that. Or actually, a Warlord who manages to get Rex one tile away from the other boss by manipulating his position, and then going on a CYDSTEP spree against Rex, levelling up by killing him, and then starting immediately on the weakened seonc boss... no clue if that would work, but it's all that's coming to mind off the top of my head :)
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Re: Quick question re: knockback

Postby The Avatar on Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:51 pm

In Naga City, Knockback can be used really effectively to kill 2 bosses at watch. Also, there is a unique super cool dragon cannon strategy that involves shoving plants into a boss until it dies.
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Re: Quick question re: knockback

Postby Lujo on Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:23 pm

I've never seen anyone use themselves as a cannonball (allthough knocback has been used in just about any other way immaginable including throwing plantlife at monsters as via the dragon cannon strat that avatar mentioned). Regular knockback whether through Binlor, Bear Mace or Pissorf is hilarious just about anywhere, but Demonic Library and Naga City are probably the places where it spells the most "win".

This "self-cannonbal" strat does pique my interest, so textwall time it is!

Too many conditions needed to make it work though, so let's see how it would play out:

1) You need a knocback monster to knock you into whatever.

There's 2 of them that I'm aware off, and one boss - the minotaur (spawns in Magma Mines, the Labirinth and Shifting Passages) and I'm not sure about the red trolls (they're ussually cowardly, but maybe one has knocback but I'm not sure where they spawn, maybe Rock Garden).

2) You need the knockback monster to be able to tank hits

Which pretty much means a lvl9 minotaur which isn't a guaranteed spawn anywhere and would take scumming, so what it means is Rex, the minotaur boss (the troll boss doesn't exist yet, dev's said something about having enough bossess and not being able to come up with a throphy drop they'd be happy with). This narrows it down to the labyrinth.

3) You need to be able to position yourself in such a way that Rex knocks you into the other boss.

Well, this shouldn't be too difficult, but for certainty you need either pissorff or wheytwut. Wheytwut is optimal, but the only way to guarantee it is prepping JJ and JJ doesn't necessarily mesh well with the strat. I might be wrong though, and at least Binlor can be prepped for Pissorff.

4) You need to be able to tank Rex hits.

Now this is a problem tbh. If you can tank Rex hits you can probably beat the place without resorting to gimmicks. Also, if you're tanking rex hits I'm not sure how much damage "translates" to the other guy. The only guy I see this working with realisticaly is the Monk, but with his massive damage resistance he'd be taking very little damage and the guy he'd be bumping into would be taking half of that. I'm pretty sure that if you prep binlor on a monk for the Labyrinth you can destroy that map.

But wth, noone's ever done it and talked about it so I'll give it a shot. Labyrinth, Binlor, Monk, Dragonshield (for resists).
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Re: Quick question re: knockback

Postby Lujo on Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:04 pm

Image

IT WORKS! I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!

Errmh, well, here's the deal - only the Monk can realistically pull it off IMO, and it kicks ass in the labyrinth. Lining up Rex is a bit of a problem if you intend to level up while you're at it (he runs away to any popcorn you munch), so I decided to go with the halfling to have a load of health potions (wouldn't've worked with anything else IMO). Wheytwut would've helped but, eh, it's prep JJ or go scumm it up. Killing Rex afterwards is a pain too. But that Goo went down unreally fast. However, my 68% resists monk was having problems tanking 100% knockback hits from Rex, so I doubt anyone else has a chance (curious about warlord, though, except what might happen is rex blowing your DP and knockback killing you).

The only practical application of this that I see would be... none, really. Maybe someone can find an easier way (fat chance, this is basicaly a "prep Binlor in Labyrinth = proffit" run), but I'm not sure who the other boss would have to be to make this, very, very nich approach better than any other one. Also, anyone but the monk would have a hard time assembling the necessary resists (maybe paladin), but if you can find a fat enough Minotaur who doesn't kill you outright there could be some shifting passages hilarity up for grabs.

If anyone has a better way of going about this and a place to do it I'd be really curious about hearing it. Technically, I think I would've maybe had an easier time knocking the goo into Rex with Binlor knocback and a less gimicky build, but that goo went down so fast that I'm not sure anymore.
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Re: Quick question re: knockback

Postby Sidestepper on Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:14 pm

Isn't knockback damage physical? Why did Goo go down so hard? Is there something different about knockback damage caused by player collisions?

Also, congrats on making that work. That's crazy!
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Re: Quick question re: knockback

Postby Lujo on Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:24 pm

Sidestepper wrote:Isn't knockback damage physical? Why did Goo go down so hard? Is there something different about knockback damage caused by player collisions?

Also, congrats on making that work. That's crazy!


Ty, allthough the fellow that came up with the idea ought to get the "came up with something insane people haven't in 3 years" award :D The halfling spongebob was my contribution, though, and I dare anyone to try to do it any other way in one try without scumming for anything ^^

There could be something about knockback damage not working the same for players and monsters (and it's entirelly possible knocback in general is still dealing true damage instead of physical). Monster knockback and player knocback have different icons and probably different code, so it really migh be that, and, hey, it might've not occured to the devs anyone'd be crazy enough to attempt this (plus, the field of places where you can pull it off is really low)).

On the other hand, enraged rex does something like 160 damage and a halfling monk can tank a lot of hits. If monster knockback is only counting the base damage instead of recieved damage (after resists) then it makes sense. I did lower the goo down to 65% resists, so the goo was taking something like 70 damage and it has about 400 HP. 5-6 hits and a few fireballs did him in easily. Thomity would've been toast in 2 hits.
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Re: Quick question re: knockback

Postby Naoya on Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:05 pm

Lujo wrote: (curious about warlord, though, except what might happen is rex blowing your DP and knockback killing you).


Monster Knockback can't kill the Player as far as I know, so Warlord should be pretty good at doing this. Also, could Corrosion work with this?
Honestly, I'm amazed that this works. Though I guess its one of the many awesome things about this Game: Even after a couple years, and a dozen already completely batshit-insane things, you STILL haven't seen it all.
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Re: Quick question re: knockback

Postby Nurator on Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:21 pm

Warlord sucks for that... Rex died just before the other one :( :D I first thought, I could kill both in one strike, but Pushback does not work if the monster is killed first...

There were no strange resists in place anywhere here. Exactly 50% of the damage went through to the Iron Golem, even if I had only 1 HP left.

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Re: Quick question re: knockback

Postby Lujo on Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:39 pm

Wow! :D

Well, if anything this goes to show just how silly Monk and Warlord are. Technically, I'm sure you could pull it off with a Drac Paladin, too.

How many hits did this take? Because if it's around 4-5 anyone can do it with Namtar's Ward/cydstepp (+mana)/DP badge and Taurog XD

In fact, if that works somebody is bound to be able to kill at least the other guy at lvl 1! (Provided you can find them and line them up first, ofc). You'd need to start with Binlor for pissorff and desecration piety for Taurogs boons, grab endiswall, find Taurog, convert in with 100 piety, convert everything for more piety, and kill 4 magic users for piety, maybe use a dodge+whoopaz on one of the bossess, but in general I think the Rogue could pull it off.

That is unless there's an easier way.
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