Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

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Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Blovski on Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:47 pm

So, we kind of hijacked the Vicious Dungeon thread and I figured we'd put this in here. There are three main god powers a few of us vets seemed to agree are kind of underpowered now (it's not a complete consensus but these are things a few of us don't really think are in a great position and I'm really interested in getting Avatar's feedback on this). Any others people think are genuinely redundant right now? Anyone have different solutions/disagree?

Enlightenment - as the only remaining 100 piety ability, it never got adjusted when Absolution (which used to be the main source of Beads) got justly nerfed. Whereas previously you'd easily have 15-20 beads if you wanted them, now having 10-12 is sort of rare. It still has application (mainly for Paladins), but I feel either the price point should be lowered to 80/64 for Paladins (like Chaos Avatar is) or the buff per bead should be upped just a tad given how monotheistic and tricky to time the boon is.

Solution A: Lower piety cost to bring it in line with the roughly equal Chaos Avatar
Solution B: Slightly better bonus per bead to make up for lower bead numbers

Tikki Tooki Poison - Now, I know Lujo broke this beyond all reasonable proportion back when poison in general was a bit crazy. It also might be one of those things that scales very well in long dungeons (so be it). Right now, the actual amount of Poison you get for this is really low (1 per level, which constitutes *one tile* of regen on an even level monster). It gives you a really low piety yield, but not if you kill a monster without getting hit, so it's not a piety generation tool with prepped Tikki Tooki. In general it doesn't fit in that well with Tikki's playstyle that I think it could be overpowered in any context other than the already broken-as-hell VGT type scenarios, and really stacking up the poison requires enough piety that getting it and the convert out to use it would be challenging. I honestly think it needs to be two poison per hit to be worth getting at the current cost, and in that scenario I can see it having some use.

Solution: 2 Poison per hit of it

Stone Heart - this also used to be ridiculously strong, I accept - but I think it got two or three different fixes for layered on top of each other and now its usefulness is absurdly niche. The limiting factors are A) Number of visible walls B) the relevant enemies must be visible and C) Total number of walls. On many maps even with an unprepped Binlor you can theoretically get only 7 or 8 shots off (35-40% resists down) even if you get no other boons.

To be honest, B) makes it borderline useless, and the wall cost of 15 per shot seems a bit too high for it to ever be useful for a dedicated Binlor worshipper, while the effect of 5% resist lowering seems way too low for it to be useful for a late-game convert in or explore-everything-convert out. I think making it affect unseen enemies again is essential, and the other half of the fix is either increasing the effect to make it useful for non-monotheists given the low piety costs or to reduce the wall costs and increase the piety costs to make it useful for more monotheistic Binlor worshippers.

Solutions:

Part 1: Affects unseen enemies
Solution A (monotheist): higher piety cost, lower wall cost
Solution B (non-monotheist): higher resist lowering per hit

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It's a huge testament to the game's balance I can only think of three god powers that aren't really practical right now (and Enlightenment still has a place while only the other two are genuinely redundant), and I completely understand if the last few balance kinks are left alone after the gigantic beta :D
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Wargasm on Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:07 pm

Solution B for Poison: 5 gold per shot. Keeps from fooling with the poison math but still makes the boon useful in more situations. Also went over maths with Lujo about how the healing benefits of Poison for the player regen wise, per piety, stacked up poorly to other deific boons.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby OneMoreNameless on Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:55 pm

I don't feel like any of those boons are underpowered, just situational. Enlightenment's requirements fit well for the Glowing Guardian's general theme of dedicated worship, and the boon can provide a decent boost if you save it to level mid boss fight - plus since you still earn piety for that level, you're left with a buffer to safely drink spare potions or maybe snag one last lesser boon. Stone Heart, conversely, might not be great if you've been taking other boons from Binlor but by worshipping or converting late then farming piety, it has saved my adventurers' unprepared behinds from resistant bosses on several occasions.

I don't know about combating bosses with it, but Poisonous Strike can definitely boost the efficiency of regen fighters or help others just get a high level kill off without expending resources. Given how much Tikki Tooki hates regen fighters and how unpredictable those edge cases are beyond the one that might currently be in front of you, it's never felt worthwhile for me to actually buy it from Tikki Tooki though.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Blovski on Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:04 pm

Enlightenment isn't really useless, it's just no longer powerful/easy to use enough to justify the 100 piety cost imo.

My issue with Stone Heart is that its current use is basically exclusively for a late conversion into Binlor, and even for that I don't really know what god you might be converting from that wouldn't give you more functionality for 100 piety (50 after conversion) than 25% resist reduction and 15% MR for more or less the last boss fight only.

Poison is obviously hard to leverage with prepped Tikki, and given his piety farming is all late game (unless you're going in with Fabulous Treasure and a transmutation scroll, I suppose, but that's a big opportunity cost), I think you'd have to work hard to get it with a monk and then convert out, for example. I don't know how many scenarios 1-2 extra tiles of regen are going to cover, to be honest. Just kind of think the effect is so small right now that I basically never use it.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:14 pm

And, err, I'm not sure how discussing anything with me is important apart from potential advice. And I'm pretty sure I haven't seen any math and am actually curious about math involving lvl 3 or lvl 4 poison strike. Just saying.

I'd call none of them useless exactly, but I wouldn't be shocked at seeing a few buffs/tweaks. Otherwise it's just the matter of being on par with other options, I guess. Either that or the matter of prep penalties.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Zaratustra on Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:23 pm

TT's Poison boon becomes even more useless once you have the Venom Dagger, since it appears in shops so often.
I really feel the Dodging boon should have been made stackable instead of Tikki's Edge.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:26 pm

Zaratustra wrote:TT's Poison boon becomes even more useless once you have the Venom Dagger, since it appears in shops so often.


How's that? (I'd think it would make it better since they stack)

Zaratustra wrote:I really feel the Dodging boon should have been made stackable instead of Tikki's Edge.


Why? :)
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Darvin on Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:12 pm

Mostly in agreement. I'm reserved on making Stone Heart affect non-revealed enemies again. The big risk is that on maps with preset bosses this makes a Binlor prep into a no-brainer. It definitely needs something, because right now I'm more likely to pick it up for emergency magic resistance if I've got nothing better to spend my walls/piety on. Poison is incredibly tricky to balance because it clashes so heavily with Tikki Tooki's natural playstyle. I'm afraid that anything that brings it into line for a Tikki Tooki worshipper will make it unreasonable for someone converting out. I'd be happy with making it one of his gold-granting boons. I think 10 gold per hit would work nicely.

While we're on the subject: does anyone actually prep Tikki Tooki for any purpose other than fabulous treasure hijinx? He's absolutely awesome, but I've never been able to justify the sharp piety loss you suffer for extra hits with the risk of game-ending punishment. He and (to a lesser extent) Dracul really seem to be outliers in the deity preparation penalty department. GG and JJ benefit enormously from early worship, MA and Binlor are piety-farming super-powers, EM and Taurog have extraordinarily minor penalties (if you can even call those slaps on the wrist "penalties". Heck, for a clearance-using character the Earthmother's is practically a benefit). Dracul and Tikki Tooki are very powerful deities, but they remain extraordinarily potent even if you begin worship very late so there's little reason to prep them when you can just go 4-altar and gamble on getting something good.

I really feel the Dodging boon should have been made stackable instead of Tikki's Edge.

No no no, no no no no

This has "broken" written all over it. Could you imagine a Rogue with a 50% chance to dodge?
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:29 pm

@Darvin: I do in fact, but I get where you're coming from. Spellcasters can generally avoid his piety loss (and even desecrate him later), and fighters do fine. If you prep him and grab the early stuff then convert out it's also fine. Rogues don't mind his prep penalty too much, especially if you're going potions and neither do assassins if you play them right. I also prep him, worship something else and then convert into him in that case. His prep penalty actually makes the game interesting (this is a personal prefference thing, ofc).

I think the problem isn't just, or so much, his prep penalty as much as other guys non-existan / benefical prep penalties. GG's penalty means you can't go enlightment, but I don't go enlightment anyway, so it's sort of beneficial even if you prep him as a piety farm (no joke*, you don't have to use potions and you get piety for leveling up and conversions + humility). EM being easily preppable is just wrong on so many levels (she boosts your leveling from the get go, the plants fuel you, her end spike is amazing AND she's also a +25 piety +3 Indulgences in a pinch). MA is way too self sufficent to have a negligable prep penalty (math might make it look right, but I'm not feeling it). Binlor 's prep penalty is... maphack. Has been nerfed but it's still that in spirit, he's capable of beating pretty much any map, gives a pissorff and is also easy to desecrate if you convert.

So if you're used to the god prep meaning mostly nothing but upside (starting with the altar next to the entrance, negligable penalty / not-a-penalty-penalty, ability to mow everything down with the god you prepped for), TT really looks like he got the shaft. I mean, I don't think an easily prepped TT would be a good thing, but I also think the same thing for EM, Mystera and Binlor.

*Funny story, it happened to me plenty of times. I used to prep GG and join up immediately "just in case" a whole lot. Most of the time I simply never used any of his boons OR converted. I even drank potions becasue I had piety to blow on it. It was like playing Faithless, except you kept getting acummulating piety and having a cleansing/protection handy. He's in fact the guy you least mind having around in terms of effort to worship (provided you're not an assassin or bloodmage) and he's rather hard to piss off, too.
Last edited by Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Dreamdancer on Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:39 pm

Darvin wrote:While we're on the subject: does anyone actually prep Tikki Tooki for any purpose other than fabulous treasure hijinx?

For me there are / were two cases:

1) Goblin Assassin fun / gold grinding (with Midas Glove) runs:
Find a glyph, convert it, kill only lower level stuff. Piety goes to Learning buff (2times) and one stack of poison (more piety). Bonus points for a lucky WONAFYT find. With leftover piety one can buy reflex pots which makes the boss rather easy. -> This approach isn't really affected from the deity preperation penalty.

2) Rogue and Thief for Naga City:
First leveled somewhat (trying to kill only higher level stuff), the started to worship TT (because of the penalty). Piety for one learning buff, dodgeing and 2-3 poison boons (wanted to have poison for the arena).

Think these were also the only cases where i ever bought the poison boon. Since it is really expensive to get an real leverage from it (think one needs 2-3 stacks) and on the other hand for the same piety one gets 1-2 reflex boons which is for a single (or two) boss much more helpful.

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Think two poison stacks per poison boon would be nice so that more classes can leverage poison. But i can understand that it can get out of hand if the cost is too low.

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For stacking dodge:
Would be nice for most classes but would make the rogue way too powerfull (even if it would cost all the piety). If it would be 25 + 25*n piety four stacks would be possible (theoretically) -> rogue with 60% dodge :shock: If one would use GETINDARE all the time dodge would be minimum at 65% or 70% after killing an enemy...
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