Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:44 pm

Darvin wrote:
I really feel the Dodging boon should have been made stackable instead of Tikki's Edge.

No no no, no no no no

This has "broken" written all over it. Could you imagine a Rogue with a 50% chance to dodge?


:D Wan't an even more broken one? Monk with 30% dodge. A newbie who figures that one out gets a cookie and half of a pair of huge moustaches.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Sidestepper on Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:50 pm

Dreamdancer wrote:1) Goblin Assassin fun / gold grinding (with Midas Glove) runs:
Find a glyph, convert it, kill only lower level stuff. Piety goes to Learning buff (2times) and one stack of poison (more piety). Bonus points for a lucky WONAFYT find. With leftover piety one can buy reflex pots which makes the boss rather easy. -> This approach isn't really affected from the deity preperation penalty.


I do something similar, but with elves. Reach level 2 (easy, because you have poison), convert to TT, and then explore the entire map. Bring your mana pool up to 18 and start fireballing the boss. The idea is that you only kill lower level monsters, and chuck all of your piety and gold into Tikk'is Edge until you have 3 layers of it. You can hit level ten this way using nothing but Swift Hands kills. Each dings lets you toss three more fireballs at the boss. It should be dead by the time you hit level ten, and you'll still have about 100 piety for Reflex boons if there's more than one. You can clear Vicious this way. In fact, because of how Swift Hands works, it isn't significantly harder.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:57 pm

Yeah, I was just going to say that you can do that to kill bossess not just grind gold.

Also, I was terrified of the prep penalty but decided I was being stupid and went and tried it out. Thing is, if you take one level of poison it lessenss the penalty (it evens out in terms of piety gained after 15 kills but you're taking smaller hits). And what it actually does is reward good play - if you slow stuff down you can harvest popcorn for a net worth of 7 per pop (if I'm not much mistaken) 5 + 1 (slow) + 1 (poison). Since you can also sink gold into piety it's not that hard to just ride him to victory (especially if you desecrate another altar / find pactmaker). Without a slow glyph it's just a matter of leveling up (not that hard with fireball and getindare), and then you harvest for 6-ish.

When you come down to it the penalty pretty much just reduces his piety gain and forces you to play more like a TT worshiper than just any random shmoe who wants the dodge, the edge and a bunch of gold. It's not that terrible.
Last edited by Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Grakor456 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:09 pm

Lujo wrote:if you slow stuff down you can harvest popcorn for a net worth of 7 per pop (if I'm not much mistaken) 5 + 1 (slow) + 1 (poison).


You don't get piety for poison on popcorn if you kill them in one hit, since poison never gets applied. I tried that before: for prepped TT, poison is literally worthless as a piety gain method except via APHEELSIK. It just slightly lessens the penalty for getting hit yourself.

I said this in the other thread, but I still don't understand the point of prep penalties for altars in the first place.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Dreamdancer on Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:14 pm

Grakor456 wrote:
Lujo wrote:if you slow stuff down you can harvest popcorn for a net worth of 7 per pop (if I'm not much mistaken) 5 + 1 (slow) + 1 (poison).


You don't get piety for poison on popcorn if you kill them in one hit, since poison never gets applied. I tried that before: for prepped TT, poison is literally worthless as a piety gain method except via APHEELSIK. It just slightly lessens the penalty for getting hit yourself.

I said this in the other thread, but I still don't understand the point of prep penalties for altars in the first place.


Are you sure? My impression was that one gets the piety for poisoning. Think also the sound for poisoning is played.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Grakor456 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:17 pm

Dreamdancer wrote:Are you sure? My impression was that one gets the piety for poisoning. Think also the sound for poisoning is played.


Quite positive, just rechecked. Easy to test since I have a venom dagger in my locker. The poison animation/sound doesn't even play if you one-shot the enemy. Poison only gets applied -after- the attack, so the enemy needs to survive the hit.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Darvin on Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:39 pm

Wan't an even more broken one? Monk with 30% dodge. A newbie who figures that one out gets a cookie and half of a pair of huge moustaches.

I'm actually not sure if that'd be worse. 30% dodge roughly equates to a 50% damage increase (on average for every 2 hits, you get 1 free hit). A 50% dodge roughly equates to a 100% damage increase (on average for every hit, you get 1 free hit). I know Monk already has a boatload of efficiency behind him, but the gulf between 30% and 50% is pretty wide.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:43 pm

Well, sorry about that, I was convinced they changed it :( Would be nice if they did for a start, as far as tweaking poison is concerned. And, err, everyone's acting linke something will be done, and I don't have any idea if anything will.

Grakor456 wrote:I said this in the other thread, but I still don't understand the point of prep penalties for altars in the first place.


They didn't start out as preps, they became preps because (as far as I know), the old church preps were being either underused (all of them except...) or overused (scout altar) on the on hand. On the other hand, it turned out people were routinely scumming for altars, or selectively unlocking them which was making giving proper feedback difficult (and messed up the learning curve on top of it). So the devs went ahead and just made it possible to prep altars, but at a penalty because the game wasn't really concieved with being guaranteed an altar in mind (or so I think).

You're probably used to it now, but this is actually disruptive. On one hand people started using gods more and using more gods, but on the other hand gods are bloody powerful and are really the most powerful preps in the game. For one prep slot you can get - well, a free glyph and more perks than you can name. Just hink of everything you have from prepping EM, up to and including the +25 piety and 3 indulgences if you prep her just to desecrate her with a burn salve. Then compare it with any other prep slot. And then consider that her "prep penalty" actually makes it quite a bit easier to use IMAWAL and fuel Cleansing.

Also, some gods were buffed since the god preps were introduced, but the prep penalties weren't touched (I think).

There's a lot more to be said on the subject, but no need to unless someone's interested...

Darvin wrote:
Wan't an even more broken one? Monk with 30% dodge. A newbie who figures that one out gets a cookie and half of a pair of huge moustaches.

I'm actually not sure if that'd be worse. 30% dodge roughly equates to a 50% damage increase (on average for every 2 hits, you get 1 free hit). A 50% dodge roughly equates to a 100% damage increase (on average for every hit, you get 1 free hit). I know Monk already has a boatload of efficiency behind him, but the gulf between 30% and 50% is pretty wide.


Neither am I, but take into account that the Monk dishes out a lot more hits meaning a lot more chance to trigger Dodges, and doesn't really break down the least bit on a failed one. Then take into account that once he's down to one hit left all he has to do is move over to the side, and come back for another barrage of potential dodges. Even 10% dodge on a Monk is hilarious in my experience, 30% would be really silly ^^ You could pile horatios one on top of another.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby lordatog on Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:54 pm

Maybe make TT punish you less if the monster that hits you is poisoned? -2 instead of -3, for instance?
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Darvin on Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:37 pm

Neither am I, but take into account that the Monk dishes out a lot more hits meaning a lot more chance to trigger Dodges, and doesn't really break down the least bit on a failed one. Then take into account that once he's down to one hit left all he has to do is move over to the side, and come back for another barrage of potential dodges. Even 10% dodge on a Monk is hilarious in my experience, 30% would be really silly ^^ You could pile horatios one on top of another.

I think we're in agreement that whether it's in the form of a Rogue or a Monk, stacking dodge boons would just be broken and it's academic as to which is the more broken of the two.

I'm just imagining what you could do if you mix lifesteal into this mess.
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