Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:41 pm

Well said in deed XD

(You might've noticed my answer to the original propositin, I was curious what he thought would happen :) )

I'm just imagining what you could do if you mix lifesteal into this mess.


Good lord :_D How about martyr wraps?
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Grakor456 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:31 pm

Lujo wrote:They didn't start out as preps, they became preps because (as far as I know), the old church preps were being either underused (all of them except...) or overused (scout altar) on the on hand. On the other hand, it turned out people were routinely scumming for altars, or selectively unlocking them which was making giving proper feedback difficult (and messed up the learning curve on top of it). So the devs went ahead and just made it possible to prep altars, but at a penalty because the game wasn't really concieved with being guaranteed an altar in mind (or so I think).

You're probably used to it now, but this is actually disruptive. On one hand people started using gods more and using more gods, but on the other hand gods are bloody powerful and are really the most powerful preps in the game. For one prep slot you can get - well, a free glyph and more perks than you can name. Just hink of everything you have from prepping EM, up to and including the +25 piety and 3 indulgences if you prep her just to desecrate her with a burn salve. Then compare it with any other prep slot. And then consider that her "prep penalty" actually makes it quite a bit easier to use IMAWAL and fuel Cleansing.

Also, some gods were buffed since the god preps were introduced, but the prep penalties weren't touched (I think).

There's a lot more to be said on the subject, but no need to unless someone's interested...


I actually find this kind of interesting, and I'd kind of like to ramble about this for a bit since I think it's related: part of what makes TT's poison boon useless is its interaction with his prep penalty, and GG's prep penalty blocks Enlightenment from being a thing unless you only get five beads or so. I don't know how valuable my input is seen as, since I wasn't around for the beta, but I guess what I offer up is what this game and these decisions may look like to someone coming in just at the point of the official release.

I tend to look at DD as a puzzle-RPG. The term "Rogue-like" gets used a lot, but at their core Rogue-likes are RPGs of a sort, and one of the most important aspects of an RPG is character-building. Part of the "reward" of an RPG is watching a character level up, get stronger, get new abilities, and just generally evolve into something significantly stronger than he was at the beginning of the game. In that sense, playing a game of DD is like playing a typical RPG in fast-forward.

This is then part of the charm of altars and god boons: they allow a character to have an additional way to power up by gaining new abilities and buffs. At the same time, you have to have your style of play altered to accommodate the piety demands of the god you're worshiping. All in all, what deity you're following and getting boons from can have just as large of an impact, perhaps even more in some cases, than your class and race. Because of this, I see the choice of what god to prep as being on that level of importance.

Now, don't get me wrong. I did play the alpha at least a bit so I know what the theory is here and why randomized altars are present. Some gods being used as piety farms, some better as late-game piety dumps, the randomization making games more varied and adding to the challenge, etc. etc. But given how important the gods can be to the playstyle of a character, I also believe it should be possible to pick up any god at level one, worship him/her monotheistically, and still do well for yourself by being the unwavering champion for his/her cause.

Tangent aside: as this is at least partially an RPG, I also can't help but think of the "roleplaying" aspect of this. It does get me a little amused when you think of the implications of some of these godly conversions. Mid-dungeon, my pious, pure-hearted priest of the Glowing Guardian decides "You know what? I'm going to completely change my entire world-view and theological beliefs and convert to the bloody god of bloody blood and bloodiness. Because blood." And then he proceeds to life-steal, lick blood off of the dungeon floor, and cast profane magic, all while still holding onto his glowing prayer beads and having that nice humility boon. It's a mite bit silly. (And I know DD in general is a silly and goofy game, but it still is one of those things that stands out, even more because piety somehow transfers in such situations.)

And yeah, I get that altar preps are some of the more powerful preps (though I'd argue that Flame Magnet and some of the locker preps have the potential to be just as game-changing in certain cases). I guess I just don't see why the penalty needs to exist still. Even if the game wasn't designed at first to accommodate this "style," I think the fact that the more popular gods are those with the least strict prep penalties kind of points out that maybe it's not a bad thing to simply embrace that.

Edit: My god, that was longer than I expected. I'm sorry!
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:11 pm

"You know what? I'm going to completely change my entire world-view and theological beliefs and convert to the bloody god of bloody blood and bloodiness. Because blood."


:lol:

And then he proceeds to life-steal, lick blood off of the dungeon floor, and cast profane magic, all while still holding onto his glowing prayer beads and having that nice humility boon. It's a mite bit silly.


XD

I'll never look at swapping over to Drac in any other way again.

And yeah, I get that altar preps are some of the more powerful preps (though I'd argue that Flame Magnet and some of the locker preps have the potential to be just as game-changing in certain cases). I guess I just don't see why the penalty needs to exist still. Even if the game wasn't designed at first to accommodate this "style," I think the fact that the more popular gods are those with the least strict prep penalties kind of points out that maybe it's not a bad thing to simply embrace that.


Well, they aren't some of the more powerful preps, they are the most powerful preps without doubt. Whatever else you pack might alter some numbers and save some exploration, nothing gives you 4-5 potential class abilities. Some of those abilities also being able to kill the boss all by themself (every god has a "piety spike"). They're just not on the same scale with other stuff.

But this is an interesting perspective, tbh. I'm annoyed with all the piety farm gods who are still able to produce ridiculous spikes (EM, Mystera, Binlor), or gods who's penalty is an outright boon. I find it hard to resist prepping a god because, as you, I consider it an integral part of a planned strategy, but every so often I start going into dungeons without a prepped god and the game feel a lot better for it, makes me think a lot more. Runs get more varied.

God's eat up runs, there's little variation to how a run with a prepped god plays out. Especially since the power of most of them rises exponentially if you find them early - not only do you get to purchase boons early, but you also get to purchase a lot more boons in the long run. Being able to prep a god and adjust your other preps and class really puts you into a dungeon at more advantage than the game can handle, even at vicious difficulty. The reason that the "scout altar" prep was overused is because being able to tell where the altars are was itself overshadowing most other stuff for the reason you could beeline for a god.

Not to mention the free glyph. Prepping TT means guaranteed Getindare, Binlor means Pissorff, EM means IMAWAL, and so on. They're all "Magnet:Glyph" preps on top of being god preps, and some are also +25 piety +3 indulgences -1 altar preps.

But the way current prep penalties work feels inconsistent. They're all mostly about reducing piety gain, but they don't really do much to really offer a different experience. TT one does, and so does the Drac one to a degree. Other ones, not so much. But I've no clue what should be done about it - if a god has no prep penalty it'll produce samey and degenerate runs, but it will be played and people will be happy to explore the god. If a god has an appropriate penalty, like TT does, people would avoid him and never really learn to appreciate him. I think even a prepped TT is a really strong prep, and I'd be overjoyed if the devs at some point put out a patch with all the penalties reworked to make prepping gods more of an individual experience, but that is unlikely.

And removing the prep penalty (and bonuses! some aren't penalties at all!) would at least even the playing field since they are all self-sufficent now.

Edit: My god, that was longer than I expected. I'm sorry!


Twas a fine and enjoyable read, IMO, would recommend. Mine is also long :)
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Wargasm on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:46 pm

See, I'm generally angling for TT, Dracul, MA, or JJ, and I don't really like their prep penalties so I usually just hope for the best. Sometimes I'll prep JJ because I want to guarantee getting him early. Binlor and EM I'll prep fairly often if I think they'll come in handy, and Taurog if I'm intending to go Warmonger anyhow. I don't otherwise like how much inventory he demands (Tinkers aside). GG I just don't usually like or want so I never prep him or often hope he'll show.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Lujo on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:51 pm

What do you find wrong with the MA penalty? I don't even remember what she's like if you don't prep her...
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Wargasm on Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:22 pm

The piety gain isn't ridiculous enough? Or maybe I just don't want to auto-win every time I play a caster. Heh.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Astral on Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:04 pm

Sorry if it counts as necroing but didn't want to make a new topic.

I agree that Enlightenment is rarely worth it, so how about giving it a secondary way of usage: If you take it with 0 beads in addition to it's current effects it gives a permanent conversion bonus, like +40%.
It is totally in harmony with GG's philosophy who "despises mundane dependencies". He rewards you for taking it one step further by not even collecting beads.
As for balancing it doesn't seem broken to me, since most CP heavy builds want to convert stuff from the start to pile up a huge bonus. You can't even grab Enlightenment easier by converting junk and potions like crazy, beacause you will undermine your total CP bonus.

Btw am I the only one who is bothered by indulgences not saving you from punishment if you convert Taurog's items?
What's the point then? If you want to convert those then you're probably not a meele only character, so the max mana costs you took were enough punishment already.

I'm okay with Stone Heart, it has a cool interaction with EM on narrow dungeons: You can make a lot of extra space for future plants at a low cost :lol:

A little buff to Poison would be cool. How about this: +1 base damage and with every new level you take, the piety bonus for inflicting poison raises by +2. (It still starts at 1, but aplies to APHEELSIK too)

What are your opinions?
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby flap on Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:12 pm

Aaaah, a good old "balancing" thread. It had been a long time !
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Lujo on Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:30 am

Well since it's necro'd and since someone was asking about what's the plan for the future of DD, why not reach a bit of a consensus on this stuff? Few short thoughts:

- Enlightment - the flavor of it costing square 100 piety is probably too painfull to change, but 100 piety boons are in fact rather unwieldly even if they don't clash with a prep penalty. Chaos avatar had the same problem. Might be decent enough grounds for tweaking the price (what to do with the paladin then? make his price reduction not work on enlightment because you can't "cheapen your way to enlightment"?)

- TT poison - probably could get you piety on one hit kills for one thing. Would also make early TT worship more attractive, that has always been a popular demand. The problem with that is the potential horror of the allready tricky TT into GG conversion (but that's what you save undead for anyway, so IDK).

- Stone Heart - eh, the problem with Stone Heart is that if it works at all it works too well. There's allready too many reasons to prep Binlor untill you get bored (and then some). Don't know about slight tweaks, but like Weakening, it really ought to make you choose between it and everything else. I'm not even sure if that's balanced, because if you need it and it's strong, you'd probably trade anything for it.

- Indulgences saving you from Taurog - I actually like this. I like the idea of shenannigans that allow you to get more mileage out of Taurogs junk.
Last edited by Lujo on Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thread Dejihack - Redundant god boons

Postby Darvin on Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:36 am

Enlightment - ... (what to do with the paladin then? make his price reduction not work on enlightment because you can't "cheapen your way to enlightment"?)

Just change the rounding on absolution's increasing piety cost. That'll bring Paladin of GG into line.
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