How to get good at this?

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How to get good at this?

Postby nopaint on Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:55 pm

Hi fellow crawlers,

I've hit a point at this game where I unlocked all the gods, have a good sum of dungeons unlocked and I am still to do class quests and etc., but the main point is, I don't feel like I am improving at the game.

When I read the wiki and the annoted playthroughs I get the feeling I'm so behind those guys. So any particular tips on the mindset that is needed to be, most common calculations, etc? How to develop a feel on how much I have to explore, how much I have to commit to a fight etc?

Cheers! I know this is not an easy question :P
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Re: How to get good at this?

Postby TheSchachter on Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:04 am

Hmm... this is a difficult question to answer without having a good idea of your skill. You say you have a good sum of dungeons unlocked as well as all of the gods, so I can imagine you're tackling the hard dungeons. Are there specific dungeons you're having trouble with? Some are definitely harder than others, and some favor certain approaches and playstyles over others.

In any case, some generic advice:

-I'm sure you at least have a good idea of this by now, but still, it bears repeating: Only fight higher-level monsters when possible. If it's not possible, try very hard to find a way to make it possible :P Experience is arguably the most important resource in the game. Keep low-level monsters around to use as mid-fight level ups, especially against the boss(es) - getting used to that skill alone can carry you through most normal and hard dungeons.

-Familiarize yourself with the Gods! Seriously, there's very little that can improve your playing more than a good understanding of every deity. Which gods favour which playstyles? Which are good to worship early, which ones might you wait before worshiping? When and to whom should you convert between deities? How do the different boons interact? If the deities scare you (and that's totally understandable!), I recommend going into Hobbler's hold (the easy dungeon) and just messing around with the Gods, since there's so little to lose. Fill out the likes/dislikes section of the codex, figure out what their punishment is, and so on, so that you can have access to that information on hand.

-The concept of blackspace conservation has multiple levels of complexity. First-time players often waste loads of blackspace without thinking much about it and end up short; they eventually realize how important it is to keep at as a resource and learn to treat it carefully. HOWEVER: it is easy to forget, after initially having learned this, that the *knowledge* that exploration gives you (where are my glyphs, altars, who's the boss in the dungeon, what subdungeon, shop items) is also an important "resource"! So "wasting" blackspace early on to get a feel for what is in the dungeon and acquiring tools necessary to the level up process can end up saving you loads of resources in the long run. Then of course you have to get a good feel for how different classes use (and need) blackspace differently (most obvious example being the Monk, but each class has its subtleties), but that comes later and with time.

-Also: Regen-fighting. It's really tough to learn (at least it was for me), but I do recommend having a look at the annotated playthrough that shows it off. Learning to incorporate this tactic in your play can make a huge difference, but this is also one of the last things I learned about this game, so I'll leave it up to someone else to go into more detail if they feel like it. However, do keep in mind the regeneration rates of enemies and yourself at all times; sometimes, you'll see that regenerating one square or two will be just enough to kill the enemy, even if you normally couldn't out-regenerate them. This is a useful skill and a good "intro" of sorts to regen-fighting in general.

-Beginners are often told to hoard all potions until the boss(es) (this is typically to keep them from wasting them pointlessly). However, if you want to get a good feel for all of the other resources in the game (including what I've outlined above), try and go one further - Try to complete the dungeons without any potions! This will force you to learn to use other resources you might overlook because you can finish things off well enough with potions. Start this off with the easier dungeons, the ones you're familiar with, of course. (As a note: Veterans of the game don't always agree on when non-boss potion use is appropriate/optimal).

Hopefully this helps; let me know if it doesn't, or if you'd like more specific advice! in the meantime, I'm sure other posters will come and give better advice :P
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Re: How to get good at this?

Postby The Avatar on Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:05 am

Good question. I'll try to answer as best I can.

First off, what The Schater has said is all very good advice.

You should really only fight higher level monsters, barring popcorn for mid-fight level ups (I assume you know what these are. If not, then you should ask, as they are an incredibly important source of resources) which can be used to get really high level kills and for bosses.

Gods offer the single largest bank of resources in the game. Seriously. They can be scary at first, especially if you get screwed in the round you discover them, but they are great.

Honestly, although this depends on class, I don't even think blackspace is that important. It is good to have a solid amount of it, but I often just explore 33-50% of the map at level one and then consistently get high enough level kills to refill my hp and mana.

Regen Fighting is probably the most useful leveling tactic in the game. Especially when your class doesn't have good early potential (like the fighter for example).

Now, onto my own extra tips:

Glyphs are incredibly useful. There is no glyph that is always bad or always good, and NEVER auto-convert glyphs. They are more versatile than they appear at first glance.

Preparations are a godsend for learning players. The most valuable are (I will ignore locker and gods as this depends on class) Black Market, Magnet: Fireball, Apothecary (if you done witch quests), and Badge of Perseverance. Also, Fine Sword is a great locker pick for newer players.

Strategy is huge in this game. Just going in and playing well can only get you so far. Strategy is what gets you through the final mile. I recommend doing "scout" runs on new dungeons to see the boss, and then pick a class you think will be well suited to beating it.

Considering it's accessibility, Burning is ridiculous. To be able to subtract 1 health per tile off a monsters regeneration is often the difference.
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Re: How to get good at this?

Postby flap on Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:37 am

Hello,

Thanks for those interesting replies Avatar and The Snatcher.

Well, in terms of skills I consider myself a few steps below the veterans, but get close to 100% success on hard dungeons. Due to the fact that I restarted the kingdom a few times and than am playing slowly, I haven't started vicious dungeons yet.

But I fully agree with what has been said.
- Gods are scary (I am in the process of finally understanding what they are doing), but powerful. Actually, in my kingdom, I am rushing east (I haven't unlocked anything yet), and just reached Namtar's Lair. Which means that I have only 2 gods available. Limiting my choice for a while, has been a very good way to get a good understanding of what GG and Dracul do. But on the other hand, I haven't played much with conversions...

- As for regen fighting, (or "battle of attrition" as QCF design calls it), I have spent much time figuring out when you can do it. There are 2 cases :
-- full regen fight : you are able to damage your foe quicker than he does while exploring during a fight. There is a relatively formullay to know if you can do it (check there). However, in some case, you would be able to damage the enemy quicker, but finishing off would take a looooot of exploration.
-- partial regen fight : you are not able to damage your foe quicker than he does while exploring, but it happens that you have got just enough health remaining health and mana that exploring a few tiles will heal you just enough to give the final blow.
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Re: How to get good at this?

Postby Nurator on Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:57 am

To regen fighting: The formula is correct, but just use

Your Level * Your Damage > Enemy Level * Enemy Damage

If this is true, you can regen fight. This is an overestimation, but if you are in the rare case that you fulfil the other formula but not this easy one, the regen fight IS possible but would take ludicrous amounts of black space so its not really usable anymore.

Good luck tackling your first vicious dungeons!
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Re: How to get good at this?

Postby flap on Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:27 am

Yeah, but is doesn't take Burndayraz into account. You can fight much stronger foes than what lets you guess your formula.

Using a fireball is similar as reducing the enemy level. Use your formula but change "Enemy level" with (Enemy level -1 - Burndayraz Damage/Burndayraz cost).
If you are at level 4, you can remove more than 3 levels to the enemy (3,67 to be more precise). So a level 7 monster would be twice weaker than what you would think with your formula...
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Re: How to get good at this?

Postby Nurator on Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:11 am

Ok yeah forgot the "use enemy level -1 when you use fireball", but again: theoretically you CAN but its not worth the wasted black space!
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Re: How to get good at this?

Postby flap on Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:31 am

Indeed.
Depending on the xp bonus, available space, remaining monster HP once you have used all your initial HP and mana (a very important parameter !), you can afford more or less difference with him.

For example, you will a need good difference with a meat man or a zombie, because the monster might have huge amount of health remaining after you initial strike. While you can usually afford a much smaller difference against a high level gorgon as the remaining health after your initial strike might not be that huge and the XP bonus might be good.
Last edited by flap on Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to get good at this?

Postby nopaint on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:43 am

Hi again, first of all, thanks everyone for the replies and good tips :) sometimes what everyone needs is just a tip into the right direction and you guys surely made me pay more attention to one fundamental thing: gods. Yep, I really need to get a grasp on them. Also, I subscribed to The Sachtcher youtube channel where I found lots of videos of random tips :) if anyone has more channels on youtube, feel free to shout here, I'll surely take a look.

Cheers!
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Re: How to get good at this?

Postby Lujo on Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:29 pm

Gods, my good man, gods! They're not that scary, really. But do make sure you understand glyphs because using glyphs is often key to getting piety with gods, so if you're spamming them for piety, get the most out of it.

One thing that wasn't mentioned here is popcorn-bowling (Or was it?). That is - try to slow low level critters (and move them out of the way in the process with Wheytwut or Wonnafyt) so that you have a "popcorn bowl" of easily consumable parcels of XP for mid fight level ups when you need them.

Also, managing your popcorn in other ways is an advanced tactic that goes hand in hand with learning gods and conversions. Many gods reward killing stuff, but punish killing specific stuff. Sometimes the piety loss can be ignored, sometimes it's a big deal. Killing all your low level undead for Taurog and then swapping off to Drac with no Taurog boons taken (or just one) is a great way to maximize your resources - not to mention that you can convert a glyph or two for piety while in Taurog and you can't really do it while in Drac. There's tons of stuff like that - mopping up magic users for TT piety, then moving to Mystera (or startin in Mystera and avoiding magic users till you level, then swapping to TT with a load of popcorn on board), etc, etc...

On potion use - if you're exploring gods, a different take on the "don't use potions" advice might work even better. (Just don't do this with only GG and Drac unlocked, GG doesn't like potions, Drac doesn't like health potions). But take a relatively easy dungeon and then use ALL your potions before the boss fight - but inteligently. Use the potions to help you get high level kills and reach the boss fight levels with more popcorn on the board. But with none of your starting potions. Then see if you can get the job done with gods/items/potions that come from halfling/gnome conversion bonus. That way you learn what potions are for (easier leveling) and how to work the gods. (Just remember to gather piety for gods while you level, a god won't work too well on no piety!)

(Oh, I'm a vet of the liberal potion chugging variety :D )
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