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QCF Design Community • View topic - Wiki strategy pages ?


Wiki strategy pages ?

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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Lujo on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:09 pm

I know I know, I just felt like writing it out a bit. I'd say it's just easier to play hybrid Elves than Hybrid Gnomes, and that thinking in terms of numbers on the boss doesn't necessarily reflect what either of those are better for without badgering the map or bypassing stuff. And it's deffinitely easier to play pure spellcaster (or more involved spellcaster) Gnomes than it is Elves. With elves you're guaranteed a mana pool anyway, you don't have to madly cheeze it, and with gnomes you're guaranteed refills even if you spike stuff before the fight (which you're more likely to do as a pure caster than a hybrid who's looking at a spellcasting endgame). Those are kinda their perks.

Elf Berserkers are a fine thing, Gnome Berserkers - not that good. (You can still PoS down VT dungeons with Gnome Berserkers, yes, before you rush out to prove Gnomes can do everything as if anyone's questioning it). Dwarf Sorcereres are great - Halfling Sorcerere... less so.
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Tinker on Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:30 pm

"Thinker", just without the "ache".
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Lujo on Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:57 pm

Yep, except the Elf Berserker doesn't have to go spellcastey, you simply hit HIS thresholds along the way. It's strange but it works (also if you get two STR potions and 2 Schadenfraude potions it can be entertaining). Oh, and you can also use Cydstep with Turog junk. Or just get 2 hits of Apheelsick whenever. Stuff like that, low effort perks which add up.

Bloodmages being strictly better as gnomes - just quit it, ok? With Gnomes, there's a very simple rule - if something has any spellcasting capability whatsoever it's strictly better as a gnome, and if it doesn't, you don't need much spellcasting capability you just need to tack some mana on it. You're cheezing something which can't really be balanced in this system and has been regarded as inherently unfixable since the dawn of time and which also causes anything related to spellcasting to have two separate modes - gnome and anything else. Halfling BM's are interesting because they're the only Wizard Tower Class who's simplest gameplay option isn't to just take a gnome and stick some mana on it (and can beat mazes purist and kick quite a bit off ass). Gnome's are always just gnomes, you pick a gnome and play a gnome and win, that's it, there's no point to discussing them because they require almost no interaction with anything and just effortlessly break anything that's otherwise fine on anyone else. Refreshment for 90% refill with the most leisurely timing on glyph conversion? You're aware that you're not playing the same game? And that there isn't much that can be done about it?

There's no point proving anything about gnomes, I don't get why you think there's ever been in any doubt about them. Just about any build, not just any spellcaster build, but, like, probably 80% builds including melee builds were kinda discovered becase whoever went for it found an excuse not to go cheeze gnomes in whatever way instead. They're not undiscovered, most people have just put them aside (or at least I have). I'm not sure there was a single thing which caused more nerfs and changes than them in the whole game.

Monks have had less damage penalties and 50% resist both - it never occured to people because they were cheezing Gnomes and measuring everything by what you can do with them. Ooodles of things were purpusefully overbuffed to see if people would pick up on them - no, people were cheezing gnomes. Stuff which was even stronger mathematically, was difficult to spot - because Gnomes were just simpler. Etc.

The BM used to have regular mana, and when deciding upon which of his many beneficial features to nerf, and clue us in on what they'd like us to use with him more, they nerfed the mana pool, just so we'd maybe try something BUT gnomes (or possibly elves) with him for the love of christ, just once, just one time figure out that there's other stuff than Gnomes in the game. I took that as a pointer and TRIED other stuff with him, and it was incredibly fun and surprisingly workable, even busted occasionally, but no - the most stupidly reductive race which makes the traditionally uninteractive glyph spam even more unitneractive because you just get refills out of stuff lying on the ground is, lo and behold, numericaly superior to EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME.

IT IS! :lol:
Last edited by Lujo on Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Tinker on Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:27 pm

You make it sound all so awful... But I still kind of like those shiny little blue potions. :lol:
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Lujo on Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:29 pm

I do too. :( I cheezed the living crap out of them and now they don't show up in my PQI. :(

Luckily Dwarfs, and Goblins and Halflings and stuff also turned out to be fun.

EDIT: And i like your alternative class gnomes, and enjoy reading about them, and find inspiration for fun runs with them. :)
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Tinker on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:37 pm

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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Lujo on Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:00 pm

^ Yes, that is why you're gettin Goblins. And what makes it terrible is that the PQI also tends to pair the race with the class you've not played it with, and that badge you tend to avoid, which makes it a ghastly environment to experiment. It's still mostly halflings, goblins and dwarfs for me.

Ah, so the thing with you tooting the Gnome horn is because Gnomes don't seem to have many, what you'd call "optimal" classes? Well, I told you why that is. Glyph spam lets you ignore gameplay/obstacles, effortless refills let you ignore gameplay you'd put in to get them, gods only became preps because nothing would stop people from scumming for them thinking "optimal" and "cheezy needless powergaming" mean the same thing... A gnome doesn't need a class. All he needs is mana, pretty much. Give him anything above a bit of mana, he kills stuff at lvl 1 - which used to be a benchmark for #nefrnow, it only kinda got added as an achevement because we found convoluted enough ways to do it that it wasn't a variation of "a gnome walks into a dungon". I think.

Also, your dislike of Goblins certainly stems in a way (or completely) from comparing them with Gnomes. Gnomes aren't a reference point for anything, they're there because you gotta have a race for each potion. They're plenty of fun if you put them with something that doesn't have any spellcasting advantages - you don't get a hybrid, you just get a gnome who doesn't necessarily win at lvl 1. Only way I see to change that would be if core races had an additional passive ability in addition to their CP bonus, and the Gnome one would be a massive penalty (like a really, really, really big one). Maybe there's another way, but I'm not sure, upping their CP cost might just cause people to badger the map harder.

So if you're asking yourself "why should I go another race instead of Gnome?", a good answer in most cases is something like "I'd like to play the actual game a bit, see/use stuff I haven't/figure out what all this other stuff is for". They used to be quite busted when the game was much harder overall. Oh, and "I don't want to screw up my PQI that much, better experiment with stuff I don't know in a safer environemnt, use Gnomes to score easy money off PQI and have a lol at the PQI's expense". I do that with Orc Fighters, it makes me chuckle every time, it's a kind of payback at the PQI for all the Dwarf Assassins I've been streaked with this one time.

Dwarf Tinkers and Fighters and stuff are loads of fun, mind you, and as I've said, I like reading about them ^^

ALSO, and this is IMPORTANT - Wiki needs a PQI management tips and tricks and stuff page. Like 4serious. Doing what you're doing (or otherwise following the current "suggested races" cheeze buffet) can and will screw up people's PQI, and that sucks, let me tell you. And you really don't want to be exprimenting with non cheezy stuff when you're saddled with badges and oddball race-class combos in dungeons you might not be used to playing.
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Tinker on Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:50 pm

"Thinker", just without the "ache".
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Lujo on Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:03 pm

Hmmm, well, I kinda don't consider Yendor a serious item, really, and it's not the same thing as preppign a lot of Goblin CP, as you've seen what Alch Pact does, and it's not the same as Yendor by a long shot.

On the second thing - well, I agree that removing the scaling on prestige levels might be a good idea, but both your approach to elves and gnomes (what you consider "optimal") is playing like the map isn't there. If you can cherry pick targets things are out of wack, that's how it's always been.

But the third thing - why do you feel cheated? It might have something to do with looking to leverage your CP against the boss or lean on your CP all the way to the win or something. But that's also comparing them to gnomes or whatever - you don't have to lose out on high level kills with them, you just need fewer kills and end up with more popcorn.

So, err, keep that out of the wiki? XD They're certainly better than you find them :)

---

Badge-hunting's another thing that could use it's own page, true, but PQI / Flaming management is somewhat different, it doesn't have much to do with particular PQI's but the "macro" kingdom game.
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Tinker on Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:08 pm

"Thinker", just without the "ache".
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