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Wiki strategy pages ?

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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Tinker on Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:13 am

As someone who didn't even know DD existed when this thread was first posted, I can wholeheartedly agree that the current wiki structure is not very intuitive for a beginner. I found the section going into great detail over the 2-1 etc. to be utterly useless, given how every build will have slightly different stats, depending on things like did you find a Fine Sword or Battlemage Ring or something. What I would have appreciated more when I was a complete beginner would have been a very solid explanation of how XP and Leveling works (it is there by the way, almost completely, in the Leveling section, but it was not intuitive for me initially). Then the key concept is higher-level kills, and again that is mentioned but maybe a bit more explanation could help. I tried to do something like that for my strategy write-up of Doubledoom, because as a beginner I would have appreciated something like this - although, probably, more ingrained in the Classes sections.

Then again, there's very little content on important aspects of the game like: inventory management; blackspace management; secret subs; plus, there is some focus on class-race combinations, but this is just two out of the four important components (race-class-deity-strategy). There should ideally be content on race-deity combinations; on class-deity combinations; on race-class combinations; and on how each of these elements combine with strategy, where other synergies can be explored. For example, Humans make excellent followers of GG, Orcs as well; Dwarves make excellent followers of Dracul; etc.

Oh, one more thing that I was missing a lot, is more strong Race, Class (and Dungeon) pages, because I did go to the Race and Class pages a lot, hoping to help me how to play something, but I didn't really get enlightened. Which is why I put some text there for some races i.e. Gnome, but I think they could still be fleshed out more. I might go deeper with Gnomes and Elves, because I'm playing them more than anything else lately, especially Gnomes (go figure :) ).
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Lujo on Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:26 pm

Here's my first experiment with the Race/Class pages, feel free to bash, edit, format, do stuff to it, I need a format for this so I can spam out the rest of them.

http://www.qcfdesign.com/wiki/DesktopDu ... _with_this

@Tinker: I'm still not convinced you got the elves and the gnomes straight. If hoarding potions is the way to go with the potion guys, something's wrong. The only reason that happens with gnomes is because of refreshment, which IS better off used later, but it gives Gnomes a 90% refill instead of a 50% one, while Elves struggle to use it at all. Which actually makes Elves better hybrids than Gnomes, who are much more suited to playing a straight spellcaster simply off of that. Or otherwise because they got 2 dodgy ways to get a ton of mana (sorcerer or JJ).

Elves make good hybrids because they can use their class to help ding the mana pool and the mana pool to help melee when they ding, ending at the bossfight with many potions and mana refills they didn't have to use to level. Much like the dwarves, really, except the elf can, with specific unlocks and preps and stuff at dungeons which allow for it play their racial earlier, while if you play the Dwarf like that it's not very likely to work. Halfling spams potions, Dwarf hoards potions, how can it be 180% turn for elves and gnomes? You can play it the other way around, sometimes the map allows for it, but then you're playing like both of them convert for total health, which they don't.
Last edited by Lujo on Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Tinker on Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:04 pm

I would expect, that if we were to write up all 7 * 15 combinations (that's something like 105 combinations!!), there would be some repetition, because some features will be repeated for (almost) all classes of a given race, and (almost) all races of a given class. Whether these need their specific dedicated pages, or whether they could be structured in a way, like, that all seven races are discussed in a bit more detail on the Class page of each class, to explain any specific synergies - as opposed to the generic traits discussed in the main articles - is a question...

For example, I would assume that all Fighters show an affinity towards big (Health/Mana) bars. Elves, Dwarves, can rely on their conversion bonuses; JJ can boost the bars; there are other options (i.e. Mystera for mana pool boost, GG or TEM for Health boost, etc.).

Furthermore, lately I've been exploiting indirect synergies, playing Gnome Fighters, and using other means to boost Mana Bar. Because both Gnome and Fighter synergize well with high mana bars. So in effect I look for preps items and boosts to raise mana bar (can be as simple as Mana Boosters + Mage Plate + Mystera to reach up to 25 mana), then go wild with the results.
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Lujo on Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:06 pm

Right, but that's not a way to play gnomes, that's a way to play hoarder elves with a ton of mana potions. I mean - it IS a way to play gnomes, but you're using a ton of features to turn them into an elf. Not that it doesn't work XD

*And yeah, I'll have to write a bunch to figure out where there's overlap so that I know what can be shortened and what can be moved to the race/class pages. But you'd be surprised at how much difference there is :)

If it becomes short enough, it's certain to be helpful to have all the pages separate because when someone gets a PQI, they can just click on that race/clas portrait and get a short brief. Just seeing that something is playable is actually a huge deal.
Last edited by Lujo on Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Tinker on Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:08 pm

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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Lujo on Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:10 pm

I'm not calling you a noob, and I'm not saying you're playing sub-optimally. I'm saying that if you can be a gnome-specialist and come to the conclusion that you've come to, then something is wrong. Not with you, you're getting stellar results.

Please, understand, it's not a pissing contest, and noone's trying to "noob" anyone. It's not that you've come to a wrong conclusion, it's about the wider implications of that conclusion. As I've said, if hoarding potions with Gnomes is the optimal play - something's probably wrong.

There is something to be said that using potions to level with Elves and then dinging the mana pool being effective, but thats more map-demendant than any other racial workable play in the game (even the dwarf one). But if Gnomes were supposed to be better Hybrids, the sorcerer wouldn't start with 5 extra mana, he'd start with 5 extra mana potions. Because that's why he has all that mana, to be a great hybrid (Human, Orc and Dwarf Sorcerers, especially of Binlor are up there with the best hybrids in the game).

Gnome and Goblin Sorcerers, on the other hand, are entirely dodgy, they only exist because the devs were adamant about having the spellcasting hybrid take that path regardless of the concequences which occur when you pair him with those guys. The vets would all probably agree that that could've been done another way (and the devs would also probably agree that it maybe COULD HAVE, but they wanted it that way).
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Lujo on Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:21 pm

But that's kinda besides the point right now - still, having all the races listed on the class page would be a much better idea than just a few. My idea is to just wirte all this stuff, no matter how long it takes, and have all the small racial portraits link to them. Then the class page can be more concise, and for details you can just acess the much shorter class race ones. If the room on the wiki isn't an issue.
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Tinker on Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:44 pm

Ok so which is it? I haven't got them straight, or the devs? Or maybe you? :) (just joking of course)

I think spellcasting benefits from big mana pool and mana refills. Elves have good mana pool and benefit a lot from refills, gnomes have good refills and benefit a lot from an increased mana pool. Increasing your mana pool with the Gnome is really optimal (regardless of when you want to use up your potions). Taurog is a much worse deity for a Gnome than for an Elf.

Now, I do quaff a potion every once in a while when playing a Gnome, to go for higher-level kills, or just get out of a tough spot that would cause me to lose too much resources, but I wouldn't say "spamming potions" all the time is the optimal way to play Gnomes. If I want to afford an extra fireball against every opponent, I play an Elf and then get the increased mana pool with every level-up. If I want to selectively spike things, maybe going for 1-2 sure higher-level kill along the way, and still have a massive spike for the end game, I go for the Gnome.

An Elf is generally stronger during the earlier game, and the way to translate that strength into an advantage during the boss-fight is by going for higher-level kills that allow more low-level monsters to be left for mid-fight level-ups against the boss. The Gnome doesn't need this, because the abundance of potions allow her to kill the boss at a lower level versus the Elf. Now, also as a Gnome, you could spend some potions to kill more high-level monsters and try to set up more level-ups during the fight by leaving more popcorn, but if you spend more than 2-3 potions doing so, you're probably losing out on the deal versus just quaffing them to spike the boss.
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Lujo on Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:53 pm

^ Well, how do you define the early game, exactly? The elf is only stronger than the gnome early game if you find and convert enough stuff to hit thresholds, but that's rather map dependent. In my mind, if a strat requires acess to everything there is on the floor (overexploring) or finding all the shops, that can't be the baseline way because it requires either glyph luck or prepping just to deal with the map. I'm not sure what was "meant to be", but I do know that whenever overexploring early on became vogue spellcasters ran rampant because you could play them the way you seem to think is the default way to play them, and even the map generating algorthym (or whatever) had been tweaked at least once for that. Used to be a time that was the only thing even considered a degenerate strat and every time a Gnome could burn the place down at lvl1 that only meant they still weren't where they were meant to be. (Took a lot of nerfing Binlor to stop us from approaching every map like you're supposed to have a Titan's Guitar on every run, not necessarily related to gnomes, but yes to overexploring :lol:)

It always worked, but I'm not sure it was ever really meant to be the default way of looking at things. You're thinking in terms of "what lets me do more damage on the boss" or "what lets me win". If you want to win, you can just prep yendor or pissorff or Orcs on stuff or whatever. You can win easily by figuring out what lets you bypass whatever the challenge is and win. You can win with many less extreme builds, in fact, so many that to a vet the map doesn't pose the question of "How do I win", but "Let's see how many different ways to win has the RNG spawned for me, which of these might possibly be coded to be more likely to appear with this race/class combo, and which of them do I feel like winning with now". Even on the Labyrinth. In fact - I've lately come to appreciate it simply because if you don't prep no-clip hacks it actually plays more sensibly than most other maps in terms of what I recall the Devs mentioning about how various racess and classess were supposed to work.

What I meant by you not necessarily getting the gnome and the elves straight is the whole "which one makes a better hybrid and which one makes a better pure spellcaster". If there's no walls, and if you pick stuff that allows it, and you convert everything etc, you can play them like that. But if you build up the gnome and spend gold and boons on it, and you try to hold off as many potions for the boss because the plan is to pelt the boss with magic - then you're not playing him as a hybrid, you're playing him as a spellcaster. The Elf doesn't have to bother with that or focus spellcasting - he just becomes a capable spellcaster in addition to whatever else he is. That's why the Dwarf makes a good hybrid - you play whatever and end up still being a crazy melee guy right at the end even if your whole map was spent spellcasting your way to levels, but you feel the benefits slowly build up.

The Sorcerer's a great hybrid for the same reason the Elf is - you're a gamewinning spellcaster with 0 effort put into it. The "optimal" sorcerer race isn't the Gnome - because that's just abuse (and THAT is why gnomes aren't talked about much, and also why they don't have too many plugs - you give them a mana pool they just destroy everything without much gameplay required, they don't need anything else, but if you touch stuff they're sinergistic with you mess up everyone else's game). There's no NEED to play the sorcerer as a pure spellcaster even if it works, that's just reductive powergaming which missess the point of why he's there in the first place - to give a mana pool to melee guys. Dwarf Sorcerer of Binlor - that's a hybrid. Gnome Sorcerer of Mystera - that's basically a hack. Certainly if it's the best Sorcerer AND the best Gnome. Because you're hardly playing the Sorcerer, and you can get your Gnome buildup game solved for you by the PQI. Then whatever you pile onto that it's inevitably just overkill, because if you weren't the Sorcerer just about the entirety of your gameplay would consist of becoming one. What else does a Gnome need? Nothing, as you've discovered yourself. You hardly even need levels.

You can play a kick-ass hybrid elf anywhere, and hybrids naturally love dings because they can use both the health and mana, but playing him as a pure spellcaster takes either overexploring or is overkill or it means that you've basically bypassed a lot of stuff that was supposed to challenge you.

Not that it's my place to say or decide what's supposed to or not, I can only use my faulty brain to try to deduce it from what the devs did when we did what during the rather long beta. But Gnomes make impossible pure spellcasters, Halflings make incredible pure melee guys, while the Dwarfs and Elves make rather easy to play transitiony hybrids. The Devs kept telling us this about Elves and Dwarves, except some of us didn't understand because we were more prone to cheeze and misuse stuff (and well, because of the clogged lockers which kinda locks you into a perspective so once you discover something you tend to cheeze it as far as it goes, much like you're doing with Gnomes right now which is likely to land you into a rather Gnomeless PQI like it did me :lol: ).
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Re: Wiki strategy pages ?

Postby Tinker on Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:55 pm

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