So I've finally figured something about Elves out

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Re: So I've finally figured something about Elves out

Postby Darvin on Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:00 pm

My main gripe with elves is that they have terrible synergy with Mystera's Refreshment, and do worse than Gnomes with Jehora.

Poor deity synergy is what keeps them out of the "top tier" races. Chaos Avatar is the best boon on the roster for elves, so JJ is probably their top pick anyways (with EM a close second).

BTW what was it that nerfed elf assassins? Changing the old poison to the new poison, or..? (I wasn't playing back then)

The poison change was a blow to elf assassins, but the real killer was actually the schadenfreude and crystal ball nerfs. It's no longer possible to purchase more than one schadenfreude potion in a single dungeon run, and crystal ball can no longer be spammed freely. These were the staples that the old elf assassin (and really, any elf) used to spike.

Oh, and elves don't have any sinergy with B2P. Any dwarf or halfling who runs into it can go nuts with spellcasting (see Astral's halfling transmuter sillyness for blowing it out of the water).

Elves work fine with B2P. It's sort of like giving more DP to a Warlord. The more you can chain, the higher the spike you can pull off. It comes at a regen-space cost, but if you can leverage that to power-level then you're golden. Elves are not the best B2P users, but it's still one of their better glyph finds.
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Re: So I've finally figured something about Elves out

Postby TheSchachter on Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:29 pm

Darvin wrote:
My main gripe with elves is that they have terrible synergy with Mystera's Refreshment, and do worse than Gnomes with Jehora.

Poor deity synergy is what keeps them out of the "top tier" races. Chaos Avatar is the best boon on the roster for elves, so JJ is probably their top pick anyways (with EM a close second).


Oh, I agree that Chaos Avatar is great for Elves (and Last Chance if you're willing to try for it). But sacrificing those Mana Potions always feels so painful as an Elf, especially when being a Gnome of JJ lets you practically be an elf on top of having a billion Mana Potions. Sure, you can prep a Keg of Mana, but that means not prepping, say, a guaranteed Cristal Ball. Of course, Health-Boosted B2P Elves are freaking amazing at low levels, so there's that :)

Ah well. Not like you need to hear that from me :P

EDIT: Writing this has made me realize that I should definitely try an Elf Bloodmage of JJ with a prepped Keg of Mana, grabbing mainly health boosts from JJ. Maybe with Quest Items for likely Crystal Ball, though Apothecary for the potion variety would also be nice. Hmmm...
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Re: So I've finally figured something about Elves out

Postby Lujo on Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:01 pm

^ The last bit was exactly the same bit of advice Blovski gave me when I was being really puzzled by Dwarves in general. Or so I remember it. Dwarves and Elves love their kegs, and unless I'm much mistaken this has just now led me to a hidden hint/refference about Dwarves liking keg parties :)

@Darvin: I just had to laugh at "giving more DP to a warlord". If DD was a globaly influential enough to affect vernacular that one would quickly turn into a folk saying for something you do when you want things to escalate quickly ^^

But still, put health and B2P on anything and you get sillyness. The way Elves sinetrgize with it isn't really specific as much as they're natural spellcasters and that's another gimmick. Halflings litterally turn into spellcasters when they run into it regardless of what they were before. And go full retarded if you add health + B2P in case they're transmuters.
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Re: So I've finally figured something about Elves out

Postby Astral on Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:44 am

I've been following this topic for a while, but haven't posted yet, since I'm too biased in this topic. I still play most of my games parched :P

Interestingly elves used to be my fave race in the alpha, yet in the full version after a while I also stopped using them. What has changed?

Elves no longer give +2 mana per glyph (without less glyphs, I'll get to that later), you can hold onto more glyphs so a spellcaster can possibly use them all (no forced conversion), all the glyhps are usefull most of the time (one less reason to autoconvert). B2P doesn't let you regen more mana than the number of your tiles, and synergises better with high health.

But the most important changes seem to be the god changes. JJ overclasses the elf's managain, and Mystera's Refreshment makes you regret early glyph converts. EM doesn't care about your max mana when refilling it...

Also in the alpha you couldn't prep anything besides your class and race. So to guarantee that you will have more mana you had to choose the elves. Now there are better preps for that.

All these said elves are not bad. They have their uses, but it's different. They are not the optimal race for pure spellcasters most of the time, but they are great for elevating classes with absolutely 0 spell casting support into fine hybrids. Or very potent spellcasters if you're okay with not using manapotions and trading them with JJ. It's not a big deal, 2 schadenfrauds (1 prepped, 1 bought) accomplish the same as 5 manapots, in this case even more since you raised your mana.
Elves still get the most out of Crystal Ball, Dragon Soul, mid fight levelups and if you're not a pure spell caster, they have easier time leveling up than gnomes.

So all I'm trying to say is elves aren't bad, they just changed from casters to hybrids mostly. Btw we shouldn't forget about beginners of the game either. Without the gods unlocked, most items unseen, some races still missing elves make a perfect choice for spellcasters.
Oh and it just occured to me, there is 1 more spellcasting god: GG. ELves get rewarded for glyph converts under him, and if you rush Enlightenment without absolution and beads, later you can use all your piety for % based mana and health refills.

Somewhat unrelated, but from all the preps available less glyphs seem to be the worse. Even for warmongers they aren't as good as the extra att. boosters for example. All glyphs converted you gain +100 CP compared to normal, but +20% damage equals 200 CP for humans, and synegises better with Orcs. Even the 3rd classes don't benefit much from less glyphs, cuz giving up their starting glyph translates into losing traits.
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Re: So I've finally figured something about Elves out

Postby Lujo on Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:09 am

^ Agree with all said, I think I messed up in the presentation and my point (as per ussual) and everyone got busy defending elves. Which actually makes this a really odd discussion as far as forums lore goes because it looks like I'm arguing that something's underpowered (and hence would in theory need a buff) while everyone's saying it's not. Vets might get a chuckle out of that one.

Also, thats a really, really good point about GG. Hasn't even occured to me.

And it has occured to me that elves are actually vital in the begginning of the game, as was said, and that they make fine hybrids (esepcially if locked into a class or really want to play a particular one).

My main gripe was the traditional Lujo "X is killing content" deal with Sorcerers rather than elves. I'm not saying elves are necesarily bad, or unusable. They do have their problems, sure, and I'm not sure if those problems are actually solveable even if someone went out to try, but the bigger problem for mi is that the +5 initial mana on sorcerors is actually too good of an ability. Or might be.

I mean, sure, dude needs big mana to spam stuff to heal himself, and 15 is allready 2 fireballs and a getindare, all's fine and dandy, and I enjoy being able to casually IMAWAL + ENDISWAL stuff while I explore (GOLDZ!). I'm kinda convinced it was put there to enable the first ability and all that... But you can really say "screw the class features" and simply play him for the mana. It's... reductive, easy and powerful. I mean, I'd know, I did it so many times I got bored. It's kind of a situation where the less features you think about make doing stuff easier. Is it really necessary?
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Re: So I've finally figured something about Elves out

Postby Kestrel on Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:57 am

Actually, I tend to think of orcs as the default race because more damage is always useful, and everything else as enablers to a specific strategy or approach. Parched runs aren't hard to do, after all, and I rarely play gnomes and halflings, but that doesn't make them weak races. So maybe elves are in a decent spot after all?
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Re: So I've finally figured something about Elves out

Postby Lujo on Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:06 am

It's different - if you play parched you're not using the potion races because you're not using the strat they're good at. I'm not using elves when I AM specifically going for a strat they're good at. And considering that thier low CP pop is quite a bargain, this makes me feel that the sorcerer might be a tad too good for no good reason. Or for a good reason, but it's still rather iffy.

All the "elves are still good for X" stuff stayes, no disputing it.
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Re: So I've finally figured something about Elves out

Postby Astral on Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:00 pm

Wow, today PQI really wanted to teach me something about less glyphs. It was so nice it even game me a melee race for the warmonger badge:

Image

So apparently orc paladins of binlor do benefit greatly from less glyphs when going warmonger. New thing learned :)

EDIT: This is getting silly. My next PQI is a warmonger vampire in venture caves.
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Re: So I've finally figured something about Elves out

Postby Lujo on Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:42 am

^ the PQI gets streaky if you've avoided a certain bage, class or race. It's quite easy to fall into a large streak of warmonger for example, and unless you do all the quests before diving into the PQI various races can make it repetitive. I'm sick to death of Dwarven assassins for this reason, and it's a bit annoying in general because it ussually streaks you with stuff you avoided because of personal dislike/being bored of it from overuse on a previous profile.

Also, the less glyphs is the big CP prep. More glyphs, however has so many tricks associated with it it's incredible. Prepping it on certain warmonger runs is really fun :)
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Re: So I've finally figured something about Elves out

Postby ArcticMetal on Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:16 pm

Astral wrote:Somewhat unrelated, but from all the preps available less glyphs seem to be the worse. Even for warmongers they aren't as good as the extra att. boosters for example. All glyphs converted you gain +100 CP compared to normal, but +20% damage equals 200 CP for humans, and synegises better with Orcs. Even the 3rd classes don't benefit much from less glyphs, cuz giving up their starting glyph translates into losing traits.


A bit off topic, but I've been having great success with Less Glyphs and the Transmutation Scroll for tons of CP. As long as you can find a poison ward/mana orb you get a 65% bonus to that 150 cp glyph and all your gold back too. I use it all the time with the vampire for an extra level of lifesteal.
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