Thanks for the responses.
This post is already huge so I'm cutting the quotes. Not too sure about it. I'll add them back if someone tells me its bad. -OP
I have definitely underestimated the god preps. I think I took one look at some of the harsher penalties, and more importantly didn't realise the Altar spawned near the entrance (I found out while checking stuff for my OP but didn't rethink the implications) and wrote them off as not worth the gold (was low on it too.) I went through the list again and thought about it and there are plenty of ways to ameliorate or negate their weaknesses (except GG?) and yeah getting to start on piety immediately is a big deal.
But still wouldn't just not putting them at the entrance have the same effect? You can still scum for them after all, only limited by your gold reserves and patience, to get the same thing but more powerful, which is boredom balacing.
If you find the tower of goo on the last tile and still win as a berserker you've overshot the dungeon's average difficulty by a huge amount, and if you hadn't already done that you'd just be dead with no recourse. I like having to adapt but the only way to win in that case is to play to be ready to splat any other boss like a fly on your windscreen. It also means you have to hold onto mana potions and burndayrayz/bysepps/pisorf just as a precaution. I hate having to hold onto things for that one game in ten where you'll need them. It means either restricting your playstyle or accepting the occasional random loss. Anyway most people are going to be scraping through or overshooting by a little, not steamrolling through ready to take on Horatio if he dares show his horned head in your dungeon and it's much more annoying to lose like that if you're worried about gold (maybe even this is supposed to be the run to get your economy on track.)
Plus why do you need random difficulty spikes when you have vicious vicious dungeons that you can do with conducts if they're too easy. There's so many places you can go to barely scrape through, and less extreme spikes on harder dungeons will have the same effect of forcing you to pull out all of the stops so the purpose of of such extreme variance is already covered. If you got a message like you hear a mighty baa, or you step in a giant puddle of goo either at start or at some level of exploration threshold, or on a certain level-up, the only negative would be that you can't get random extreme challenges (that you can easily have already lost by the time you find them) in moderate dungeons which, when you can get the same difficulty elsewhere, should only be a good thing.
It's that horned bastard bleaty that's the real problem anyway. no amount of efficiency is going to save you unless it's enough stockpiled mana and level ups to kill him with only fireballs or you don't need to be particularly efficient at all if you find and hold onto cydstepp. (while also holding onto other stuff in case of tower of goo.)
About it being less roguelikey, yeah 99% of the time you can adapt means a 1% random chance to lose >_<!, I'm sure the numbers are much lower if you take precautions but I don't see why you'd ever leave any random chance of just losing with no recourse in a game if there's a simple way to mitigate it. Especially if it's a really low chance so that it always blindsides you. I don't want control over the randomness I just want some types of randomness (you-roll-a-natural-1-you-trip-and-die) completely gone, ruled out as special cases one by one if necessary. The only thing about randomness I was talking about was this one problem with certain bosses scouted late. My problem with the weapons is just the general principle that unlocking things should never make you weaker (doesn't mean you can't e.g. lose a leg in a story and have to hobble, but if it says "congratulations, one-legedness unlocked!" I better be a faster hopper than I ever was a runner), especially if you're not told what the unlocks do beforehand because I like to do things optimally and if that means leaving half the content locked my brain will be sad. About stuff like Gods. Well, I always read a roguelike's wiki before I play it and their likes and dislikes are listed in the in-game encyclopedia anyway so it's not really a change I'm suggesting there just an improvement.
I played the alpha as well and did 100% single player completion, I'm just pretty clumsy unless I'm making an effort not to be so I'd lose a lot of runs by fireballing people with retaliate fireball while low on hp, clicking on guys while checking their stats, that kind of thing, happy to just be tickling my brain with interesting puzzles and slowly letting the skillz sink in but at some point I realised I was running out of gold, and if I didn't want to be restricted I actually had to have a high win rate, and worry about gold management. That was annoying but not too bad. Then I realised the trophy prices were spiralling down, and there just isn't anything to tell you things will get better. The actual path from the start to clearing purist GT is pretty short, especially as unlocks are fairly irrelevant because you have to do it purist, but there's 0 indication that this wasn't just a genuine moronic decision to actually reduce gold income over time as an exercise in demonstrating the futility of working in an unfair system or god knows what someone would be thinking to restrict things more and more as you progress through a game.
I didn't feel like getting more trophies more than I felt like doing quests and unlocking things. There's no indication till the last 4 or 5 that anything will happen if you complete the set.
I didn't have any problem with the gold farming in the alpha because there weren't all these smiling cartoon faces and standard "progression" looking things around giving me the opposite impression.
Weak items: Mage plate, I thought the ward and orb were weak but apparently they're great for their conversion, the bloody sigil is probably good for the same reason, crystal ball?, hero's helm? blacksmith sword and shield? I don't know, what do people put in their veto slots? What items do people deliberately avoid unlocking? It's not so much that any particular item is weak it's that the optimal way to play might be to deliberately avoid unlocks and that you can't change your veto slots freely so you'lre always gonna have a stronger overall power level if you unlock items that work with a few classes and stick to those classes.
Orcs are stronger than humans right? A weak item could be replaced with an attack power item near the level of dwarven gauntlets and the +2dmg sword blacksmith prep could be made small. Also does anyone use the shield? I only use it on sorcerers. It could be made small too.
More importantly why do you have to locker 6 items and have to go find the item to locker it or veto it. I don't think it's a plot reason. As the king ("administrator") of dungeonville I assume I live in a house, or at least a large box, so I have space for more than six total things (of indeterminate size). This isn't a survival horror game. Limiting my choices isn't making me tense or excited, it's making me mildly irritated. This way I make an interesting preparation decision once per locker change, instead of constant interesting decisions about the best item for the race/class for the dungeon and beyond that, the best race/class/item combination for the dungeon. Instead I have six items and it's almost always obvious what the best one is. What is the point of this restriction? It also causes me not to use classes I don't have slots for and obviously I can't just mix it up when I feel like it with a fabulous treasure or transmutation stone or draining blade or any other item with a particular use, or just any particular item I feel like, unless I go on errands every time I want to do something different (errands I can scum for extremely easily.) It's not even a real restriction, it's a requirement that you undergo hassle in proportion to how wide a pool of items you want to prepare.
Yeah I know all that stuff but I don't look at it as a plot at all. It's a collection of stories, ideas and jokes, and it really is very good, but I certainly don't take it seriously (in general, there's some great stuff in there) to the point where I'm ok with being inconvenienced for plot reasons. He's a fucking goat! It's a puzzle game! How did I become king? There's no way I'm gonna view myself as a guy running a kingdom rather than as the player when the game is so tongue-in-cheek so when it comes to stuff like farming gold I'm thinking I have to do this because the developers decided it not I have to do this to get gold for the town. If you want me to accept restrictions the game needs a serious tone.
Well did you ever get any fun out of the gold management? Does it add anything to the game? Is it ever anything other than a non-issue or an annoying restriction? I guess it could encourage you to vary up your level of preparation? But its still a restriction one that necessitates a fine balance. If someone is too good they can ignore you restriction, too bad and the restriction will be suffocating. You could encourage people to do that in different ways, like quests.
If you have to farm to do what you want you might get bored and stop playing, or hell you might just get bored. I view that as a loss. A punishment from the game for being bad at it in a bright and shiny puzzle game. Yeah you can just do things to get gold but you might not want to, especially when you'd only be doing them to do something else (highly prepared run) which you might fail at and have to farm to try again.
I totally believe you lol. My imagination fails me when I try to think what the position could be that all these compromises are being made from though. Like, I actually can't think of what it could be, but it did create desktop dungeons so it can't be that bad.
Why is a gold sink good?
So noted on the matter of ward and orb.
I'm no arse-elbow-distinction expert but I'm not making the suggestion because I want things to be easier. It's just bad that unlocking an item can make things harder for you. I thought it went without saying that you'd have to change things elsewhere to maintain the same level of difficulty.
The game is full of awesome story stuff but the trophy collection decay is not integrated or signposted anywhere near enough.
If the scouting came at level 5,6,7 or even 8, or 70/75%/80%/85% exploration it would just put an upper limit on how screwed you can be by boss placement that would ensure you're able to at least atempt to adapt, with no effect on general unpredictability. The only way to deal with unpredictability if you don't know what you're up against is to just diligently destroy the dungeons as efficiently as possible while holding onto all tools you might need. You can only adapt once you see what you're fighting.
There are three ways ways to kill bleaty, death protection, magic, and high resists with high hp. Getindare can make any of of those easier. But if you don't have death protection or magic or the ability to take a hit you can't kill him because you can't hit him, which means you have to save your mana potions, and not convert cydstepp, every time, until you find the boss, for that 1 time in 10 when it is bleaty and sometimes there just won't be any getindare, cydstepp or huge amounts of magic power. Meat man is not too bad but finding him late can make him much harder as black space is by far the most useful against him. Sometimes you can adapt but sometimes it'll just be a matter of how efficiently you've already played. But yeah meat man isn't really in a league with tower of goo (and is there a magic resist tower of goo equivalent if so him too) who isn't in a league with bleaty for their ability to force you to take certain approaches (which isn't a bad thing, except that sometimes you find out too late to take one of those approaches.)
Did you say something about bleaty not appearing randomly? I could've sworn I got him randomly before.
Those retaliate wraiths were pretty you-rolled-a-natural-1-you-trip-and-break-your neck when my elf wizard got them on purist GT in a small level 9 room after getting a pre explored level 8 room. I probably could have beaten them if I had already played better but I wouldn't have needed to play anywhere as well to win if they weren't there, and the better playing would have had to have happened before I saw them. GT and VGT still shouldn't have auto-losses, but I really don't know if it is an autoloss or not.
I don't know about bloodless bleaty I saw it in a thread.
Both of those problems would be solved if the god was just guaranteed rather than guaranteed close to the entrance.
I know you don't need gods I was just saying: if need then reason-why-bad, if want then reason-why-bad, which covers pretty much all possibilities.
Yeah I know its want. The sentence you're quoting says want. What's wrong with wanting to play a certain way?
But anyway this doesn't bother me anymore I was completely wrong about gods they are interesting and worth using.
What's the advantage to binlor? Better angles for knockback to break walls on the cheap? More blackspace on maps with clusters of wall?
I'll try the encyclopedia out but I'll probably prefer the wiki because the encyclopedia tends not to list numbers and I'm starting to not need the wiki anyway.