Infinite ways to make an infinimuter

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Infinite ways to make an infinimuter

Postby Astral on Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 pm

The first time I found a way to generate infinite mana was when Darvin mentioned his amusing challenge, and it was done by combining huge health, Naga Cauldron, Fire Heart, B2P, some other stuff and an endless supply of health potions. About 2 weeks ago I found the interesting spirit sword bug* that opened gates in front of countless new methods to generate mana. Since up to this day generating infinte mana has only been done successfully with transmuters, but from transmuters every race is capable to do so (except elves), I call these builds 'infinimuters'.

(*If you have an active spirit sword and don't hit anything, then decrease your max mana and trigger spirit sword again, it won't override the previous effect just refill your mana. You can refill your mana this way countless times as long as you don't hit anything, don't increase you max mana or lvl anymore. If you break the combo, it will only work again if you do the entire process, including the max mana decrease.)

This is both a tutorial on how to make infimuters on your own and a collection of my discovered methods.
I may edit it later for people who are uninterested in the 'science behind it' and only want to try it out.

The classic method is boosting health and/or mana ridiulously at lvl 1 on a potion race and chugging those potions between B2P - Fire Heart shenanigans. This is inefficient and scum-heawy.
By adding the spirit sword trick which refills your mana completely, we can cut down on the stat requirements greatly and create methods that work past lvl 1... even methods for lvl 10 exist.
It's worth mentioning that the original halfling method was max mana independent, but by adding spitit sw. it becomes a mixed method where max mana is a meaningful stat too. Most of the strats are mixed, except for gnomes who can become health independent (and due to this lvl independent too) at certain max mana thresholds.

So how do we create an infinimuter?

We want to have enough max health/mana, that by using B2P some other glyphs and Burndayraz we can cast so many spells that we break the CP threshold, and with the bug we refill our mana. This is 1 cycle. We also have to find a way to make sure that the health change between cycles isn't negative.
So first we always choose our glyphs, items for raising stats (if necessary), healing and additional mana generating method. Then we write an equation system with 3 equations: 1 for mana change, 1 for health change and 1 that accounts for all glyph casts and is equal to the CP threshold.
It has some degrees of freedom, so it can't be solved just like that. But you can pick the values of some variables like either max mana/health some glyph casts or debuff counts if you have the Naga Cauldron etc. then everything falls into place.
You shouldn't predefine both max mana and max health at the same time, cause it can lead to impossible stuff: like cast B2P -13.5 times :lol:

Doing all these calculations would be time consuming/boring especially if you did it multiple times to find optimal solutions, so let's do all these in excel instead. I'll give an example:

1. Let's make a halfling infinimuter who casts 1 BD on the target every cycle, makes mana by B2P and spirit sw, spams Lemmisi for CP and heals by Naga Cauldron boosted health potions and the 5% Fire Heart charge.

For any given max mana this is what we need:

What I did was that I wrote all the variables in columns grouped together, and made 2 extra in the end (health/mana generation to check whether possible).
I preset the mana, BD cast, debuff count, made a function so Lemmisi count with the other spells adds up to 27. I wrote functions for h/m generation too, with EVERY relevant variable included.
First I adjusted B2P count till mana gen became 0. You don't want it to be positive either because that costs extra health.
Second I started adjusting health. It had no effect on mana gen, since that only depends on glyph casts. Any health value is good that makes health gen at least 0. I wrote the lowest possible values there.
After these I copy pasted it with the functions kept, and searched for solutions with different mana/health values. When I changed something the health/mana gen columns showed the result.

Things to notice:
- req. health depends on B2P count
- more max mana means bigger refills, less B2P dependency, less health need
- increasing max mana is only meaningful by 3 points: it let's you convert a B2P into a LEM,
any less is wasted

I also checked what happens if we play around with debuff counts, and tried a different glyph setup too. Halpme is an escpecially great glyph to use; it heals directly and indirectly by FH.
It's also easy to convert working B2P-LM-BD methods to fit in Halpme:
Trade 2 Lemmisi into 1 B2P and 1 HM: same mana cost, CP, but heals 1HP/lvl and 5%.
This table shows how much improvement does having HM provide:

Not carrying Naga Cauldron is viable too. In some cases you will see LEM = 0. In those, you don't need Lemmisi anymore, so you have more inventory space to use. Helps when you prep JJ or want to carry an extra RBS.

This table is about the gnome infinimuter variant, with same items:

Mostly undoable without HM, on the other hand gnomes make up for it by being able to work at higher levels too. With halflings nothing works past lvl 3-4, for gnomes even lvl 1000000 would be a piece of cake if such thing existed.
Generally gnomes start disadvantaged but catch up exponentially with each max mana increase.
I colored some methods in green (easiest ones), yellow (work at any lvl with any hp), gray (impossible due to inventory space limit - so I didn't bother finishing the calculations either).

Here I showcase some gnome methods designed for lvl 10:

Labels are missing, but the same as everywhere else. Don't mind the 10s, they were a variable for level.
Where the mana gen is negative, it just means you need Mystic Balance or that much extra mana.

So far I only showed setups, and how many glyph casts are required here and there, but did not give any tips about the casting order, but that's important too!
You have a lot of freedom when you create the order as long as you waste nothing - or have excess health and you're allowed to waste some of that (but not mana).
Useful tips:
- start the cycle with Burndayraz, continue with B2P or LM
- use spells in great masses, so there are less steps and are easier to follow
like cast B2P until your health runs out/mana fills up continue with HM untill any more would waste health...
- add FH/potion drinking at a point where the mana/health count or CP is unique and easy to remember
- finish cycle with a spell that costs mana and is not B2P - no mana is lost
(though you couldn't even do this without excess mana)

For most races not every cycle is exactly long cuz their CP threshold is not a multiple of 3.
Like halflings have 2 long 27 spell cycles followed by a short 26 spell cycle. In the short cycle you need to cast 1 less spell which can be a Lem, or a HM but has to be compensated by more starting health or a counter HM in the next short cycle (you trade BD into it).
Gnomes have no such problems.

Before I continue this topic, I'd like to hear if you're interested in the continuation, also any criticism/suggestion is very welcome!
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Re: Infinite ways to make an infinimuter

Postby Sidestepper on Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:26 am

Something I've been thinking about is the interplay between punch bags, infinimuters, and the gods. Combining these methods, for how many gods can we generate infinite piety? So far I see

Mystera: Infinite casting
Jehora: Infinite WEYTWUT, WONAFYT, BYSEPS, and GETINDERE. Punchbags work also
Tikki Tooki: Infinite WEYTWUT or WONAFYT. Punchbags also work
Glowing Guardian: Infinite potions should do it, but this might be unrealistically inefficient
Earthmother: Very large piety from IMAWAL and plants, but possibly not infinite. Plant build up will be a problem unless wall breaking is available.
Dracul: Halfling might be able to do it. I'm not sure if having to sac health potions would break the cycle or not. HALPMEH is also off the table, which is bad.
Binlor: Walls might be an issue. Can be mitigated by a previous stint with Earthmother. Piety is probably not infinite, but sufficiently large
Pactmaker: Use any of the above and pick your favorite pact

Taurog: I don't think that this is possible with Taurog

I'd like to see someone abuse these methods to get as many useful boons as possible on VGT or NC. Taurog is the only one that looks strictly off the table, but we probably wouldn't even want his double-edge boons if we have all that other stuff. Dracul is probably best played traditionally, after having vacuumed all of the other gods dry.

If I get into this, I'll make another thread about it to keep this one more focused on infimuters themselves, rather than on applications.

P.S. A stripped-down "how to" article would be fantastic!
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Re: Infinite ways to make an infinimuter

Postby Darvin on Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:30 am

Heh, I wasn't actually aware of this bug. You're basically getting half a Goatperson plus your regular racial bonus out of each full CP cycle, so infinite combos should be relatively straightforward with this. I'll definitely have to try it out later, before the devs can plug the hole.

Really reminds me of the old Crypt dungeon, exploiting regenerating blackspace with the Monk. The only thing stopping infinite regen combos back then was the fact that the game would crash if you attacked too many things (like 200+) over the course of a dungeon.
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Re: Infinite ways to make an infinimuter

Postby Nurator on Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:45 am

For the "get all god boons run in VGOT" you can do some crazy stuff:

Take a halfling transmuter with Bear Mace, Fire Heart, More Glyphs, prep TT and scum for JJ on the first floor. Instantly join JJ and play peekaboo with him until you have 5 weakening and at least 50 piety, convert to TT, take dodge and use a punchbag for infinite TT AND JJ piety :)

After that, you got at least 90 HP and 22 mana without any items on lvl 1 so you can start any cycle you like, creating infinite health potions, then clear the first floor , join the god on the second floor, get everything from him (Mystera would be awesome, but your infinite halfling cycle will give you infinite piety with a lot of gods).

Beware of GG, he DOES NOT like BLUDTOPOWA. So just convert all your potions and get out of there. With infinite mana you can cast IMAWALL for EM until you have everything you want, then Binlor for enough walls for everything.

Its very scummy, I tried to pull it off but never had everything in place :( ^^
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Re: Infinite ways to make an infinimuter

Postby Astral on Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:54 am

A couple of things to mention about interactions between infinimuters and gods:

MA: Yes you can generate up to 100 piety, but can't take any max mana increase or the combo is over. If you rely on Lemmisi even Mystic Balance is out of touch. The best you can get from her is spamming that resist stripping boon and taking Refreshment.
JJ: If you're already making infinite mana, you can't hit anything so no peakaboo/pisorfing/dodging piety. You can get piety out of Bysseps and Gettindare ONCE, because you can't clear them. Unless I'm wrong Wonafyt won't make piety either: it doesn't give piety for slowing, only for revealing new monsters.
But even if you made a method with Apheelsik/Weytwut to generate infinite piety it would be way slower and more complex compared to peakabooing. JJ really should be worshipped before infinimuting.
TT: you could generate infinite piety, but slower than if you used punchbags.
GG: B2P is necessary for halflings, and they also need to drink that 1 extra potion per cyle. Ouch.
Gnomes at 39 max mana don't use B2P, but to get there they already needed an Enlightenment. Besides they drink potions too.
EM: there's nothing you can do with infinimuting that wouldn't be easier without it. I mean what stops you from Imawalling all the monsters and reachable plants? Btw infimuters can't spam entanglement freely for more plants, it would slow the monsters and they would give xp for petrification. After 5 you already level up and fail.
Dracul: the methods I listed depend on you drinking the health potions, but it's possible without it. Will be really hard though cuz you can cast Halpme. On my next post I will show methods for orcs and dwarfs too, and the same can be applied for parched halflings. Bear in mind theses methods work at lvl 1 and taking sanguine will be a serious burden due to the health loss. So you should hoard potions first with someone else, and join Dracul late once you've stopped infimuting.
Binlor: walls are not infinte, and breaking walls with knockback+punchbags is waaaaaaaay easier.
Pactmaker: if you are under MA you can fuel the potion pact easily at the cost of making the cycle's order more complex
on lvl 10 gnomes. For halflings it kills your infinimuting.
An interesting question is this: if you take spirit pact on a halfling and worship Dracul, can you infinimute easier by converting your potions instead of drinking them? (Probably not but I'll test it)

If you want to break VGT in a hilarious way just infimute with a human, and stack damage%-s until you feel like.

@Sidestepper: Which setup do you want me to detail more? Like tell me how the 16M/70H halfling work with NC,FH the 3 glypsh and 3 debuffs...
Please don't choose something with hundreds of health, those are just to illustrate how impossible they are :)

@Darvin: I hope they don't remove it yet, I have a lot of arguments for keeping it. Simply put it's more time consuming and harder to do then beating a dungeon. Also it takes scumming and costs gold to pull off, and very easy to screw up, at which point it can easily cause defeat. It will never be a newbie tool to cheat your way to victory, it takes a lot of skill to set up and even more to fix if you missclick (which is common on methods where you cast 100+ fireballs).
Also the spirit sword bug doesn't have to be used in such an exploity way, it can serve as very neat 1 time trick to refill mana, which is far more useful at high levels then getting mana drained for extra damage.
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Re: Infinite ways to make an infinimuter

Postby Kami on Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:28 am

I was talking about infinite god piety on the punchbag thread. So here are my conclusions:

binlor:Just get 0 base damage and cast byceps on monsters, when piety is really high cast imawall.

earthmother: Just make an imawall endiswall combo with plantation.

taurog:(you can get piety but you will lose more)this one is interesting, get to the avatar with 0 base damage and get a combo working with:hit avatar, heal back and youse fireball on spawned enemy.(only function of it is to get infinite spawns in libary and you can youse gloves of midas for infinite money, because they give exp. :D :D

Sorry for my bad english. When I'm typing, I make more mistakes.
Last edited by Kami on Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Infinite ways to make an infinimuter

Postby Nurator on Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:47 am

But you can use Halflings for cycles without using the health potion, until you have 100 of them^^

Binlor Byceps is a good idea, Kami, you just have to make sure you have a very low attack multiplier, so that the +30% does not bring you over 0... is this possible other than taking flames before?

EM gives no piety for IMAWALing empty spaces... or can you use plantation on a blood pool, then imawall the plant, endiswal it and the bloodpool stays? That would be glorious :D

Taurog still is the hardest one... especially when we try everything in VGT..
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Re: Infinite ways to make an infinimuter

Postby Kami on Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:56 am

Nurator wrote:EM gives no piety for IMAWALing empty spaces... or can you use plantation on a blood pool, then imawall the plant, endiswal it and the bloodpool stays? That would be glorious :D

Here is how I meant it: Youse imawall on plant, then youse endiswall. Repeat till there are no more plants. Youse entangelment it spawns plants and costs always the same.
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Re: Infinite ways to make an infinimuter

Postby Nurator on Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:28 am

thats a good idea :) Someone has to really try that out :D
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Re: Infinite ways to make an infinimuter

Postby Astral on Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:19 pm

I'm giving a detailed explanation on how to make a halfling infinimuter with 70 HP/16 MP, weilding Naga Cauldron, Fire Heart, Burndayraz, Lemmisi and B2P.

Prep JJ, Naga Cauldron, bear mace (for peakabooing), compression seal (to cope with less inventory space), more glyphs (less scumming, the others give meaningless extras), quest items (for Fire Heart and possibly Mage Plate), more gold.

When you start the dungeon use LM a couple of times, if you don't find a B2P, restart. However if you're inexperienced with farming JJ piety, you could practice it so you definitely pull it off properly when the RNG is good.
If the glyphs are good, join JJ and pick up a low MP JJ piety generating glyph, as well as weytwut for positioning, and start farming. Don't take Burndayraz and B2P yet, so you won't be forced to convert something useful later.

Take petition 1st but make sure you have at least 1 corrosion, weakening and curse before that. If you got mana burned, drink an MP potion too. Then pick a mana boost, then the health boosts while looking for shops. You're searching for Fire Heart, but more importantly any max mana item.
Also keep an eye on altars. Any unneded altars can be destroyed for extra piety, while EM can give you health cheaply if you took some health boosts. It's also viable to not join JJ at the beginnig and worship EM for 20-24 HP, some corrosion, and a nice 100 piety before switching to JJ. Once again don't forget to collect 3 staying debuffs.
Taurog can be useful too. If you don't get any max mana items, you can use one of his boons to decrease you max mana for the spirit sword bug. Plan ahead though, so you don't get trapped at him. Btw, if you picked more mana boosters for prep instead of the extra glyph, you won't need to take more max mana increasing boons to reach the required 16 mana.

After you reached 16 max mana, 70 max hp, you can either stop and move on to converting, or continue increasing your health for extra safety. Leaving the 3 hp boosters on the ground is pointless, also at 77 hp you can do the process without FH.

When you're ready, buy the max mana item, convert stuff for spirit sword, convert the max mana item, triger spirit sword again, and you can pick up the rest of the items and glyphs. And never hit anything again or use pissorf.
At this point your inventory is filled with the 3 glyphs, NC, FH and potions, and there's no more space for big stuff.

The full cycle has 2 long and 1 short subcycles. I made them almost identical:


The 0, 1 and 2 on the left means how much starting CP belongs to each subcycle. If your max HP is over 77, don't use FH, only in case you missclicked and cast an extra LM. In that case corrigate with B2P so you have enough mana for the subcycle, and FH is used to offset the increased healt loss.
It's probably unneeded if you used an extra B2P, since you generate some surplus health in short cycles via potions. Also at higher max hp even extra LMs are ok.
Each extra 3 max mana over 16 lets you missclick one more times per subcycle. If both your max mana and health are high, you can play very sloppy.

When using the table I recommend checking CP values to find where you are.

Have fun with it!
Next time I post orcs, humans and dwarfs.

Edit: misclicks only need to be corrigated, if you crossed the casting limit of that spell. Like if you clicked B2P a 15th time when 14 is necessary. Otherwise just use 1 less of that spell on the next step.
And looking at my table, I realised missclicking LM is impossible. In it's 1st step you go down to 0 mana, in it's 2nd the cycle ends so you only need to tweak the casting order.

And there's a tradeoff for even less scumming I didn't mention. If you prep RBS, the extra debuff increases your potions effectivity by 5%, in healing that's equivalent to that of FH's, so there's one less thing to scum for. But you won't be able to peakaboo without pissorf or cowardly foes.
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